|
Post by morganlbusse on Jun 1, 2009 22:27:05 GMT -5
I have a couple questions about critique groups and would love to hear what you guys think...
-Are you part of a critique group? -How did you find your critique group? -Is it local or online? -How much time do you devote to critiquing (in other words, how much of your writing time does your critique time take away) -Do you find it helpful?
I'm trying to figure out if joining a critique group would be good for me. As far as I know, there are no local ones in my area (at least no local ones I would feel safe and comfortable sharing my work with).
Right now I have two people who critique my work; they are people I trust, who bring a unique perspective to my work. But neither are writers and so they don't pick up some of the more subtle things another writer would (like those times when I pop out of POV or that I need more description, etc...).
Another problem I face is time. I'm not sure how much time a critique group would require. I have no problem spending time on another person's work when they're spending time on mine, but I don't know if I could do a whole group of people.
So I just want to know if you've found critique groups helpful and a good use of your time and energy. Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by metalikhan on Jun 2, 2009 2:06:56 GMT -5
There are a few critique groups within a 45 min drive from me but none meets at a time compatible with my work schedule. I've been able to go to only three of the HACWN monthly meetings over the last year and a half. Although they had very informative speakers, I came away with reservations about whether the affiliated critique groups would be of any help. Most of the people at the meeting wrote Christian non-fiction (Bible commentaries, magazine articles, essays, and so on). Only a couple wrote any fiction at all; and no one wrote science fiction or fantasy. My entire "critique group" consists of my husband who doesn't care much for fiction. He can spot inconsistencies pretty well and is quite happy to read what I wrote if I bribe him with home-made pizza or freshly baked bread. POV breaks — forget it, he's not that critical. Nevertheless, I think a group whose observations you can trust and whose genres are compatible (but not necessarily identical) with yours could be valuable for improving your writing as well as your critiquing skills. I recently received a link in an email to a Writer's Digest article you might find helpful. www.writersdigest.com/article/how-to-choose-a-critique-club As for online critique groups, I tried one several years ago. It was on a writing site but it stopped the critique part of the site not long after I registered. The thing I noticed most was that there were as many opinions about any one piece as there were people posting. Sifting through all the advice, opinions, and occasional arguments took an incredible amount of time for the one or two really helpful "pearls" you might be able to use. That ratio just wasn't worth the effort for me. I also became a little gun-shy when I read some publishers would not consider work that was posted on a critique site. You mentioned the time for doing a critique. I'm sure everyone handles them differently so I can only share how I do it regardless of whether it is a first or final draft. I read the piece straight through and jot down my first overall impression. This takes only a few minutes longer than needed to read the piece. I set it aside for a day or two then re-read it. Do I get the same impression or a different one? Answer noted. Again, only a few minutes longer than the reading. The third reading is when I start digging — POV, sentence structure, grammar, punctuation, etc. That's also when I note any questions or observations I might have and any suggestions for improvements or corrections. Depending on the length of the piece, it may take as little as half an hour or as long as 3 hours. The critiques I posted here recently took just over an hour. Sometime after I joined The Anomaly, I started doing something else. Although I don't critique everything posted, the ones I do I now send first as a PM to the author. It may have been my imagination, but some of the responses to the critiques sounded somewhat wounded. Writing is intensely personal and much of what's posted here is not in final draft stage. I keep in mind what I read will probably go through several overhauls. My intent is never to wound, only to give a critique that will help someone improve the craftsmanship. Besides, a critique is not only for pointing out what's wrong with a piece but also what's right. So, I give the author a preview and let him/her decide whether to approve posting the critique. If they approve, I post it; if not, I leave it for his/her eyes only. Is it worth my time and energy? I think so. When I critique someone else's writing, it sharpens my ability to examine my own work impartially and critically. My writing improves as I help others improve their writing.
|
|
|
Post by metalikhan on Jun 2, 2009 3:17:23 GMT -5
Afterthought about time for critiques: They usually don't take a lot of time away from my own writing. I have to pace myself because I'm normally working on more than one story and more than one POV at a time. I take writing breaks between them to give myself time to change mental gears. That break-time is for research, drawing, or catching up on other projects I neglected (like cutting the cat's toenails) as well as for critiques . I don't think I could dedicate the time or brain-energy to critique for a whole group of people. I would probably do fine if it was only one or two regularly or occasionally like the ones here. But mass critiques -- I might as well try to be an editor!
|
|
|
Post by JenLenaMom on Jun 2, 2009 7:32:24 GMT -5
I belong to two on-line critique groups but one is mostly close friends and I have a hard time prodding them into reading my stuff when I post it, lol. Both groups I belong require membership in the group to view the board, therefore any stories posted retain their first publication rights. Since they are on-line it can take some people a little while to get around to reading and commenting but the up side is you're not hanging around watching someone read your work. (ugh I can't imagine sitting and having people tell me to my face my writing stinks and it kinda did at first ) The first group I joined on-line was at a site dedicated to a fantasy book so we are all pretty open to different sorts of works. We also, from time to time, have exercises to help improve different techniques. I've heard that there is a critique group at AbsoluteWrite.com but I'm still to chicken to jump in those shark infested waters, lol
|
|
|
Post by torainfor on Jun 2, 2009 12:26:26 GMT -5
I found the critique group I'm in when Donita Paul came to my church. First I eavesdropped on a conversation, then I begged for her to let me in. (OK, it didn't take too much begging.) She's since left this particular group, though, for a "children's" that actually writes for children.
The group was very, very helpful in the beginning. Everyone brings copies of a few pages (between 0 and 20, although we're trying to limit it to 10). Someone else reads your pages while everyone else marks them up as needed. It's only 1 1/2 - 2 hours a week.
But our group is extremely micro. They'll catch POV errors, comma issues, maybe notice if a particular scene is getting too long. But only seeing 10 pages a week, we don't get into story flow, over-all pacing, or anything macro in scale.
We only have one published author, and she does Sunday school curriculum and church plays. One thing I've noticed is that when someone tries to give real criticism ("Junior highers don't talk like that." "You're just showing off your background knowledge; this doesn't push the story along." "There're too many names; it's confusing.") we tend to trust our own passion for our story rather than another unpublished author's recommendation ("What would she know?") We really should listen to each other better.
But the group is great for support. One writer comes nearly every week even though her school year is so busy she usually only writes in the summer.
I have sent my WIP to a couple of different people for an over-all review, but all the feedback I get is very general. The only improvement suggestion I've received is a friend wanted me to change my characters' names to sound more Biblical. I'm still not sure why.
|
|
|
Post by duchessashley on Jun 2, 2009 14:23:23 GMT -5
I think part of the problem with critique groups that meet face to face is that no one wants to hurt anyone else's feelings. Writing is such a personal thing...and once you meet with a group a few times, you tend to get to know them as friends. Most critique groups apply rules like, "Nothing too negative," or "Be sensitive to people's feelings," which is understandable, but sometimes not helpful. I've really enjoyed my time with the critique group I've found, but it is pretty surface-level stuff. And as much as I'd love to find someone who would scour my story and tear it apart, I wonder if I could really handle it.
|
|
|
Post by morganlbusse on Jun 2, 2009 15:28:46 GMT -5
Hey, thanks for the great input so far everyone! One of the things I think is needed when you find a critiquer is trust: trust that they will give you the truth on your manuscript, but you trust them enough that you believe they have your best interest in mind as well. You also need to trust that they won't go blabbing about your story to others and that they definitely won't go posting your work on the internet (that just happened to published writer recently... very sad).
After all, you're handing your baby over... you don't want to be told your baby is ugly... but you understand when they say your baby needs to mature a little more.
I'm blessed with the two people I have in my life: they are trustworthy and will tell me what isn't working, what they enjoyed, etc... I also ask them pointed questions so they don't just give me vague answers ("I really liked it" or "I didn't like it"... because answers like that don't help me.)
I'm still forming my opinion on critique groups, so keep pouring in your experiences! Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by waldenwriter on Jun 3, 2009 14:14:19 GMT -5
The thing I disliked most in my junior college English classes was "peer review" where fellow students would comment on our papers. It was so hard for me not to get defensive of my work. I encountered this again this semester in a class I took called Theory and Practice of K-12 Writing Instruction, where we had to write comments on sample papers given to us (which were from other classes the teacher taught) as a way of practicing "responding to student papers."
A group of students at the university I attend recently created a club of sorts called the Creative Writing Community, which offers writing workshops, sponsors student readings, and the like. They just got club status this semester. I heard about them from a e-mail list I got put on because I'm a Literature and Writing Studies major. I went to a workshop of theirs and read one of my Walden-set short stories (displaying it on a computer-linked projector screen since I forgot to bring copies, not knowing how many people would be there). It got a surprisingly good response, and what constructive criticism there was I found I could take without getting emotional. I did have to explain some stuff since the story doesn't give a lot of backstory and such (it was written with the intent of it being part of a collection). So I will probably try to get more involved with that this fall. The school newspaper is receptive to including fiction too (according to a staffer who was at this workshop) so I might try that too (it would be good for my résumé).
|
|
|
Post by torainfor on Jun 3, 2009 15:57:55 GMT -5
I just finished Anne Lamott's "bird by bird." She talks a lot about writing partners and critique groups. If you don't mind some language, I'd recommend it. It's really funny and talks more about the philosophy of being a writer and living that life than mechanics and grammar.
A friend of mine was talking about something her husband had said. When she called him on his tone of voice, he said, "That's just the way I am--brutally honest." She looked at him and said, "Honesty doesn't have to be brutal."
|
|
|
Post by metalikhan on Jun 5, 2009 12:27:17 GMT -5
Last night, I was able to go to an HACWN meeting for my first time in several months. I wasn't wearing the bodily fluids of any critters such as the ferret barf or kitty urine I got splatted with earlier this week -- such things happen at a vet clinic -- so I was able to go "as is" to the meeting.
The main speaker talked about writers' personalities, some of it based on a book called Personality Plus but most of it based on the classification of the 4 humours from centuries ago. Much of her presentation had to do with the strengths and weaknesses of each personality -- it was interesting.
Prior to the presentation, everyone had to stand and, by way of introduction, tell what kind of writing each does. Several affiliated critique groups were present -- as I mentioned earlier, most wrote Christian non-fiction. A couple of them mentioned fiction although not as their main genre; but there was one new member/new writer who said she was working on fairy tales and a SF story. I didn't get a chance to chat with her after the meeting -- maybe I can contact her through HACWN.
I still have reservations about the critique groups. I watched the faces of the other members when I introduced myself and when this other young lady introduced herself. The impression I had was that they were politely indulgent toward wayward youngsters who might someday write devotionals and self-help articles and books. Please understand, my impressions are not always accurate; but when I hear what all the others are working on, I can't help but feel they wouldn't be able to critique my writing. It's too far removed from their interests or calling -- it's off their radar, it's off their map.
The search continues.
It might help to remember that although a writer is unpublished, he/she shares one particular experience that published authors have. Before any of us took up pen or keyboard, we were all readers.
|
|
|
Post by torainfor on Jun 5, 2009 19:04:43 GMT -5
Oh, you have to read the first chapter of Donald Miller's Searching for God Knows What. He talks about how he went to his first writer's conference and found himself surrounded by women writing devotionals for tea time and coffee time and girls who dance ballet. Later, he found it was a non-fiction conference, not fiction. Then he found out what "non-fiction" and "fiction" meant.
|
|
|
Post by Christian Soldier on Jun 7, 2009 14:08:51 GMT -5
Ooo! I adore that book. Have you read Blue Like Jazz or any of his others? They're just as good.
|
|
|
Post by torainfor on Jun 7, 2009 16:25:19 GMT -5
Yup. As well as To Own a Dragon (which is about being a man, having grown up without a father) and Through Painted Deserts. I'm from Portland, where he lives (although I know he grew up in Texas) so his experiences as a theologically conservative Christian coming to terms with a liberal environment really resonate with me. Especially since I live in Colorado Springs, now, where I sometimes feel like the world's biggest NPR-listening liberal.
|
|
|
Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 8, 2009 8:09:12 GMT -5
When crit groups are good, they are very, very good. But when they are bad they are horrid. Recommending that aspiring writers join a critique group is a bit like recommending that your children swim in the ocean. If there are no sharks, crocodiles, poisonous jellyfish, dangerous undertow, or human predators, it can be like no other joy you've experienced. Crit groups you find through ACFW ( www.acfw.com) are often quite good, and I think you can find them in your genre. They're online only, I believe, but can be very helpful. Jeff
|
|
|
Post by Chivalrybean on Aug 15, 2009 11:54:03 GMT -5
My first attempt at a critique group was the critters.org site. It's ok, but the workload is a tad high, and you don't get to put story up every cycle. It might be wonderful for some folks, though.
My current group meets in Second Life (an online world, if you aren't aware). We meet weekly in world, and we post our stories to a protected Google Group. The theme is Speculative Fiction. Some authors are published. A bonus about this Second Life Group is they are part of Third Life Books, run by Michael A. Stackpole himself. Yeah, the X-Wing series guy, 5x NY Times best seller. He isn't in the writing group itself, but he has an 'Office Night' where writers can ask writing related questions every week.
If you can't/don't want to meet in Second Life, you can join just the writing group int he Google Group, but you'll miss out on the in-world discussions.
Workload is only about 4000 words every two weeks to critique, and you can post 1000 words or so every two weeks. There's also an option to post a long piece for review, but posting a whole novel might best be submitted some other way {:0p
I sound like an advertisement ...
Anyways, if anyone is interested, it's open, and I can say I've learned gobs and gobs of writing know how. Just let me know.
|
|