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Post by tonylavoie on Aug 15, 2009 18:13:46 GMT -5
I belong to ChristianWriters.com, and I have to say I've gotten very good feedback on everything I've posted there. Yes, you get many different points of view, but generally if something needs fixing for real, more than one person will comment on it. With any critique, it's up to you whether to accept or ignore any suggestion. The good thing about CW is that every genre is represented, so *someone* nearly always provides feedback for your piece. I don't provide feedback on everything in my genre, but when I do it varies from a few minutes' to an hour or so of my time. Not a bad trade off. In recent months I've developed working relationships with a couple of authors I met on CW, so they know that when they want my take on something they've written, they can email me directly. That works both ways, of course. And I've started working on a couple of side projects with a couple of them, including helping one figure out how to set up her own imprint (I'm not an expert like Jeff, but I know what I like and what I'd like to see, so she takes my comments from that perspective) and working with an artist who is illustrating some of my Christmas stories. It's been a great growth experience for me. So I enjoy my crit group immensely. The fact that we're all coming from a Christian perspective means, overall, I can trust them to provide feedback designed to better my writing, and not to cut down anything I have to say. Not saying it works for everyone, but it works for me. -Tony
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Post by Christian Soldier on Aug 16, 2009 14:16:53 GMT -5
Sweet! I'll be sure to check it out. There's writing.com , too, but it's largely secular.
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Post by kouter on Aug 16, 2009 14:44:30 GMT -5
I used writing.com germinating my writing. There are actually a lot of Christians on there. But I found the non Christians feedback helpful, if not more helpful as they were not afraid to tell you what sounded too preachy.
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Post by beckyminor on Aug 16, 2009 16:16:08 GMT -5
The challenge I have with onlline critique (I'm also a ChristianWriters user) is that I find it very hard to get folks to stick with a book beyond perhaps a half-dozen chapters. The people who do crit give great feedback, professing also to really find the story captivating, but getting a long-term, serious group of core critiquers is something I have struggled to accomplish. The other roadblock I have run into with online critique is that people get overwhelmed with posts that are over 1000 words long. I don't know about you, but it takes longer than 1000 words to get the sweep of the action in my story, so chopping it up into 100 posts of a 1000 words...well, you can probably see the way that feeds into problem A, listed above. So, while I have been very grateful for the feedback I've gotten on CW, it hasn't fit my need for long-term critique of an entire novel. I guess this leads me to the question: Have any of you been able to go through an entire novel with a critique group, online, face-to-face or otherwise? (I'm finding the segments of my book that have not had enough perr critique show it. )
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Post by torainfor on Aug 16, 2009 17:36:53 GMT -5
I got through my entire first novel (65k) and half my second with my face-to-face crit group. I've since changed groups, and am taking that second novel again. The first group was good for a beginning writer as they focused more on tangible absolutes like grammar. This second one is great because they'll rip it apart if something deeper is wrong. (And the members have the writing cred to back it up.) I am very fortunate to have been in both.
I've had several people read hard-copies of my work, but I can't get anything out of them besides "I like it; it's good."
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Post by tonylavoie on Aug 16, 2009 17:57:55 GMT -5
I find it very hard to get folks to stick with a book beyond perhaps a half-dozen chapters. Ouch! Yup, guilty as charged Becky...but in my defense, I tend to want people to tell me the *types* of problems they're seeing in my writing (as in, point out a few examples), then I like to take that advice and run with it through the rest of the story myself. I don't want to turn someone else's work into my own, nor do I want someone else to re-write my stories. So my decision to give feedback on only a few segments is a conscious one. I'd rather point out a few examples of a pattern and then let the author find the rest themselves, with the caveat that, should she/he get stuck or otherwise find they need advice on a subsequent chapter, they should seek me out directly. But it sounds like not everyone shares my thoughts on that, so I should maybe make an effort to spend a little more time with some of my peers' chapters, says I.
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Post by Christian Soldier on Aug 16, 2009 18:31:07 GMT -5
Me, I tend to read the whole thing, rip it apart, and render my opinion on every aspect that I feel could change. If only I had more tact when I did it.
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Post by beckyminor on Aug 16, 2009 19:09:12 GMT -5
I find it very hard to get folks to stick with a book beyond perhaps a half-dozen chapters. Ouch! Yup, guilty as charged Becky... Oh, gosh, Tony! I wasn't pointing the grumpy finger at you at all! You've been perfectly available whenever I single you out for a crit, so please don't lump yourself in with those I may be whining about. And I totally get your techiniqe of calling out "types" of mistakes for the writer to go back and apply the advice to subsequent chapters. That totally makes sense to me. I guess where I am feeling my current lack is in being able to have a few dedicated folks who can look at the story from a plot arc, voice, plausibilty "macro" view and hammer me on that. But please, please, please don't take my frustrations as directed toward you in any way. I have nothing but glowing praise for the ways you have helped me. Should I grovel more, or have I covered it? And Christian Soldier, I think more writers would have a better product if they got more crits of your type, tactful or not. A pat on the back is nice to keep the writer from collapsing into a sniveling heap, but the crits with major suggestions are what make the work better, IMHO.
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Post by kouter on Aug 17, 2009 14:46:36 GMT -5
This is to address the critique of an entire novel. I'll give you some statistic from my novel when it was on writing.com. On there they have a reward system where you can give people points for leaving a review.
My first novel is 17 chapters, the first one posted in 2005. I offered a sizable (far above norm) reward for the review of each chapter.
My first chapter has had 2683 unique views and has 253 reviews.
The amount of reviews then tail off, only 96 for chapter 2, 60ish till chapter 6, 50ish to 40st for the rest.
By my last chapter there were only 35 reviews by people who had read the entire book.
Another reason for not getting a complete review of the novel might be that you novel is hitting a sag in pacing around a certain point. Maybe a chapter ending is lacking a good hook to keep the reader propelled along.
~Kirk
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Post by beckyminor on Aug 17, 2009 19:45:28 GMT -5
Hey Kirk, Thanks for the insight on how the "retention rate" was for you. I think those percentages pretty accurately reflect a typical online crit experience, so if you only start out with a dozen "followers", then it's easy to see how by mid book, an author's posts might be met by nothing but the empty howl of the wind.
And I agree that a plot that bogs down might also cause a loss of readership, which was why I tried jumping around a bit to the really juicy chapters, with a paraphrase to keep the "critters" feeling oriented.
All that to say, I freely admit that I have a lot to learn about cultivating lasting relationships with critiquers, and I hope with all the stuff I am learning here and on other forums, that I'll make some strides there. Heaven knows I need a few fresh sets of eyes on things if I want them to be the best they can be.
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Post by metalikhan on Aug 17, 2009 21:44:31 GMT -5
There is another possibility -- the time between critiquing the chapters is too long to hold peoples' attention. It may not necessarily mean anything is wrong with the story.
I'm not fond of serials. If I have to wait a month or so between reading one chapter and the next, I will not be likely to finish reading no matter how good the story is. With each new chapter/section, I have to re-read what's happened before to get my mind back in the story's gear. Too much time passes for me to remember the characters, the tone, the clues or time bombs that have been planted. I lose the feel for the arc of the story in each character (which is a major item in critiquing an entire novel). My critiques are more likely to concentrate on the smaller issues in the chapter rather than the overall scope of the novel. I wind up commenting on the trees rather than the forest.
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Post by KMWilsher on Nov 15, 2009 18:20:06 GMT -5
I have been a member of ACFW for a year now and have found invaluable advice and friendships that have not only enhanced my writing, but also my life. Without ACFW (American Christian Fiction Writers) and (Christian Writers of the West - my local chapter) I would not be the writer I am today. The membership has given me more than the small amount of $ could ever have purchased. ($50 the first year, $40 a year after)
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Post by journeyman on Dec 2, 2009 7:50:51 GMT -5
Years ago I was an active participant of WRITERS-L and ran an online comics script writers critique group for about a year. Jeff's observations are on target.
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Post by Grace Bridges on Dec 9, 2009 3:28:22 GMT -5
I am in one crit group online, but they only ever exchange chapters, which irritates me no end. Like Becky, I'd far rather exchange whole novels. As a critiquer I also feel I can give better feedback if I've read the whole thing. But what has worked well for me is shouting out for critiques on the Lost Genre Guild list tinyurl.com/lggworld and there are enough of us on there that usually a few folks have also got a manuscript ready to swap. This has led to some long-term partnerships and real friendships - I've even met a bunch of my online friends for real, and that's awesome. Somehow that kind of relationship is deeper because we've read each other's books at their roughest - and we all know we put our heart and soul into our stories.
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Post by beckyminor on Dec 9, 2009 9:02:15 GMT -5
I keep meaning to "join up" over at LGG, and just haven't done it. (I already have so many internet haunts that I feel like I need to start putting a cap on it all.) But I have heard good things about the folks over there. How can you beat a place where people with overactive imaginations gather, after all. But I can see what you mean, Grace, about how following eachother's work through even the roughest patches would build camaraderie. It's like sitting in the trenches with someone.
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