Is this unnecessary info?

[veryblessedmom]

"They say we have a monster guarding the place, "Tony Iaconelli said. He pointed two fingers in the air, still in the shape of holding a cigarette. The olive-skinned man in his late thirties laughed as he walked around his desk and sat down.

This is the first paragraph of the scene. I was told it was awkward and nothing about the scene requires these facts. Maybe if he rubbed an olive-skinned cheek and later you could drop in his age, if it's necessary.

Don't we need to know what the speaker looks like? I get that there might be a better way to work in what he looks like. I'm open to suggestions because I struggle with that.

I don't understand the speakers appearance not being necessary information to the scene. If that is true, please explain it to a newbie.
Thanks

[veryblessedmom]

I raced my Harley down the street before hitting the brakes. The bike’s momentum propelled it forward and around. Squealing tires painted the street with streaks of black as Nathaniel spun a one-eighty.[/i]

I was also told[ Let the reader imagine. Just say the bike spun. You don't need to spell out every specific like how far he spins or if it is a 90, 180 or 360. If it matters, you can clarify as he starts back up again.

I like scenes written to where I can see them. Is this wrong?

[Teskas]

Lots of writing books, and Jeff's Tips, discuss the challenge of information.

The most compelling advice I've seen so far is that a writer should leave room for the reader's imagination. Reading fiction is not a passive act. There is not only the creativity of the writer who put the words on paper, but also the creativity of the reader bringing his own life experience and imaginative creativity to the image being expressed through the words. So, fiction is a collaborative act. You need to give the reader enough information to get to work on the story being told, but not so much that he feels bludgeoned by your desire to get your ideas across.

As for the PC's description, there is plenty of latitude. An author should ask himself why the description is necessary for the reader. (Raymond Chandler's detective character, Philip Marlowe, was never described in any of the novels, and yet, I'll bet most of us have a good idea in our heads of what he looked like.) I'm working on a character at the moment who has a Latino nickname because he has Mediterranean coloring (something important for the plot), even though he is actually a Dutchman. In that case, I need for the reader to know his coloring is more that of José Eduardo Verástegui than Daniel Craig (although my PC isn't anywhere near as good-looking as either actor--). So I give a good solid description for the sake of the plot.

Having said all this, if you decide not to tell your reader what your PC looks like, it still is a good idea for you to know what he looks like in your own head as you write. And it is also important to know exactly what actions are taking place, even if you don't put every detail to paper.

Just some thoughts.

[kouter]

Hi Mom!

For your second post I personally think the 180 is fine. In the particular case spinning 180 vs 360 is a big different in events.

Now for your first scene, the problem stems from your earlier post about the same passage.

You have not anchored the reader to a point of view character. Its your use of omniescient view point that waters down the writing and may seem erroneous to most readers. Although technically there is nothing wrong with the omni-pov you do sacrified something for that I can tell the reader anything style. The trade off is loss of intimacy with the characters and suspense.

The scene would probably read better if one of the characters was the view point character. In that case the view point character would not be able to describe himself, but could describe the other character.

It takes more skill and discipline to write like this, but the pay off is a reader tuned in to your characters.

My $0.02 anyway.

[torainfor]

My 2 cents:

The second one might be changed to something more immediate and intimate--describe the bike's rear wheel swiveling to the left and landing so that it's faced the opposite direction?

Kouter's right about the first one. POV characters don't think about their "olive skin" unless it's for a reason--they're vain or just painted their face or are uncomfortably surrounded by blue Martians. And don't revert to the old "look in the mirror" trick. Figure out which physical characteristics are important to the story and reveal them in context.

[veryblessedmom]

I've conceded on the POV. Too many people saying the same thing about that.

I'm trying out editor/coaches. This person cut out almost all description saying it was not necessary to the scene and took away from the action. In the scene I point out one man was shorter than the other when they walked out and was told that how tall they were was not necessary to the scene.
I don't think I agree on removing all description but I don't want a yes-man/woman for an editor/coach so I came here for feedback.


I've redone the prologue in 1st POV. I kept my description because I just don't get scrapping it.I'd like feedback.

[veryblessedmom]

Prologue: New York City

“They say we have a monster guarding the place,” Tony Iaconelli said while turning the key to open his office door. He motioned for me to follow him with a two-fingered point—the chain smoker’s hand forever in the shape of holding a cigarette, even when he wasn’t. The olive skinned man in his late thirties half-coughed, half-laughed as he walked around his desk and sat down

“I hadn’t heard that,” I said, following him into the office. “May I ask who they are?” I slid into a blue plastic chair facing the boss’s desk. Crossing my arms in front of me I leaned back. A newly installed camera pointed right at me from the corner of the room. A row of monitors now sat on a shelf above the boss’s head. There I was on one of them— black hair and black eyes. I quickly turned away.

“My cousin Rocco’s a cop. I saw him last week at my nephew’s graduation party.” Tony put his hands behind his head and leaned back. “We got to talking about work. He used to be out here filing burglary reports all the time. You’ve been here a year and a half now and I haven’t had to call him once.”

“I thought we were talking about a monster?” I interupted.

“I’m getting to that. Anyway, he asked me what kind of security guard I had. So I said, ‘Name’s Nathaniel Taylor. Nice guy— too nice for security work, or so I thought. Almost didn’t hire him but he came with great references. So I gave him a shot. Haven’t had a break in since. Why do you ask?’”

I sat up to listen, but kept my composure.

“So he goes on to tell me this crazy story a couple of gangbangers told him one night. These two punks got picked up for jaywalking. Rocco saw them run right out into traffic.

“He said the two men were shaking and carrying on so he thought they were high, but their drug test came up negative. When he questioned them they said they’d been chased out of my warehouse by a monster with glowing eyes and big sharp teeth.” Tony coughed a laugh and shook his head.

“So, is that why you had the cameras installed, to catch a monster?”

“No.” Tony sat back up in his seat. “It was to lower the cost of my insurance. My premium went down because those babies went up,” he said with pride, pointing toward the monitors with his two fingers.

Tony must have noticed my agitation. “Don’t worry. You’ve done an excellent job. I’m not replacing you if that’s why you asked me to come by tonight.”

I stood up, rammed my hand into my jacket pocket and pulled out a ring of keys. “Here.” I threw them on the desk in front of Tony. “I quit.”

“Quit! Why?” His eyebrows lifted, wrinkling his long shiny forehead.

“Just time to go,” I turned and walked out the door.

Tony jumped up from his seat. His short legs had to move in cut time to keep up with my long strides. “What brought this on? Did you get a better offer? I’ll match it,” he yelled from the doorway.

I swung my leg over my vintage 57 Harley Sportster. I stomped the pedal hard—a loud roar from the engine was the only answer I gave. I raced out into the dark street away from the docks, without turning on my headlight.

Making a left turn onto a deserted back street behind the fish market, I squeezed the throttle, making the bike louder and faster. Speeding down the street I hit the brakes. The bike spun. Squealing tires painted the street with streaks of black until I faced the opposite direction. My engine stalled.

Smoke, along with the noxious scent of burned rubber, permeated the night air. I looked up at the street light beside me. Pointing right at me was a security camera.

They’re everywhere.

Gripping the handle bars of my motorcycle, I gritted my teeth. I felt my jaw muscles become rigid, making my facial skin taught. It wanted out. I could feel it, but I stayed in control.

I closed my eyes and slumped forward in my seat. With a sigh, I reached behind me and grabbed my black helmet. I pulled the head piece down over my ears before stomping again. I revved my Harley’s engine to life, but this time with less bravado.

I cruised to the end of the street before flipping on my headlight. At the stoplight, I waited for it to turn green before easing out onto the crowded city street. There used to be anonymity in the big city, but not now. It was time to find a new place to hide.

[lexkx]

Couple quick thoughts on characters, description, and action:

Readers tend to evaluate a character's presence and influence in a story based on how much description the author provides. If a character won't be in the story more than a scene or two, details aren't as necessary. Unless you're a British 50's novelist--in which case, feel free to describe down to the moles and mother's family history. Epithets are incredibly handy. Not just for the reader, but one simple phrase that conjures a character for the author makes it easier to craft a character on paper. "Grey-eyed Athena" is the only description Homer ever gave of the goddess, but it was representative of her cool, practical nature, and the readers' imaginations--no matter how diverse--all come up with the same kind of woman.

For describing characters, it's good to keep in mind the POV you're writing from. Men seldom describe clothes, for example, by label, cut, and colors like magenta or periwinkle. "What kind of shoes are these? Uh, black." That kind of thing. What kind of details will your POV character notice? Also, if your character is in the grip of a strong emotion (fear, anger, etc.), that will color perception, as well. Friendly eyes become shifty as the POV character becomes suspicious. Laughter becomes mocking, teasing becomes insulting. The reader should be drawn into how the POV character is reacting to the conversation, and accept the perception of the scene as being from the character's eyes. (Conversely, while your POV character may not know what's going on in another character's head, you the author should have some idea. It's a little unclear whether Tony is telling this story because he finds it interesting, he suspects something, or he wants to warn your character. Your character doesn't care--being outed is more than enough to make him run--but the reader will wonder.)

Some people flee because they are being chased, or think they are. Some flee because they cannot handle themselves in a particular situation, and they know it. On rare occasions, people even flee towards something rather than away from it. My only concern with the bit with the Harley is that it sounds a little like the character stalled his engine on purpose. Did the bike go out of his control?

[morganlbusse]

I personally like description. I think there needs to be enough description to anchor the reader into your world (and as a fantasy writer, for me that's important). But only enough description to anchor, not overwhelm the reader or make the reader have to pause and visualize (I've read star wars books where they say the measurements of the ship and I hate that because I don't want to stop and figure out how big that is, just say its as big as a small asteroid or something).

As far as editing advice, it seems everyone is different when it comes to writing (some people like description, some people don't, some people write long prose, some people are short and to the point). And that makes sense, if authors are different kinds of people, then their writing styles will be different from one another as well. And that's not a bad thing! So I guess I advice that you learn the fundamentals of writing (be teachable and learn), but then there comes a point where you need to decide who you are going to be as a writer (you can't follow all the advice out there because it conflicts).

After you discover who you are as a writer, its up to you if you want to change your story when an editor comes who wants to publish your book, but wants a few things changed. You can say no and find an editor/publishing house that likes your story the way you wrote it or you can make the changes so you be published by that particular institution. But its your choice.

By the way, I like your opening better now that its in first person POV (I feel more connected with Nathaniel now that I'm in his head).

[veryblessedmom]

I want to thank everyone for your input. So many views on writing is why I was advised by my writer's group to find one editor and work with that one person.

I would write something and hear, not enough details. Rework it then have someone else to tell me detail slows things down.
Everyone has a different idea about what would make it better. If I keep rewriting for every new person's take I might rewrite chapter 1 twenty times and never finish the book.

I like description and want to learn to do it right and well. My favorite books are the ones I can see in my head when I read. So I'll probably keep looking for an editor who likes description and can help me with that. When I get in my scenes I see my people and I want my readers to also.

I'll keep looking and praying for the right one. Not to sound not PC, but I really want a woman editor to work with. It's just a safeguard I prefer as a married woman.

[lexkx]

You are very right about rewriting over and over to suit different members of your audience. If this is a first draft of a first novel, you might want to be very careful about letting anyone intimidating around your story. Good advice from people who have written, good advice from people you trust, these are valuable assets, but all of these other people [us] are not you. The story you come up with belongs to you, and no one can write it for you. Readers can rewrite it in their heads as their imagination comes in contact with yours, but just because a story has the maneuverability to be rewritten does not make the rewrite better. It's not that an editor isn't helpful, but you may want to have a draft done so you know your own writing voice before you let a "professional" tell you how to do it. (Pride & Prejudice & Zombies[i/], for example. Hands up for everyone who thinks the rewrite took as much craft and creativity to write as the original novel.)

And now I'm getting off my soapbox.

[fluke]

Readers tend to evaluate a character's presence and influence in a story based on how much description the author provides. If a character won't be in the story more than a scene or two, details aren't as necessary.

There is a series I read a few years ago that broke this rule. The author did a good job keeping his characters from being cutouts. Problem was that he spent a lot of time in the prewriting on characters that weren't in the book very long. But since he had done all the work, he HAD TO SHOW US. It got to the point where you knew that if he started giving lots of little details about a character who was new or had not been on page much, he was a dead man walking.

[veryblessedmom]

Yeah, my description can become a laundry list sometimes so I'm trying to learn to work it in.

I'm honestly not sitting here thinking of details. I just see my characters in my head. When I met Tony he came with a receding hairline, short legs, etc. I can hear his voice. My characters are very real to me.

The only character I've had trouble getting to know I would shy away from in real life too. She's too much like people in my family. So, I've avoided her too. If I see her as a person with a sin problem instead of just looking at her sin, I have to stop judging and start caring.

[Spokane Flyboy]

Personally, from most of the fiction I read, neither of those posts seem odd to me. In the latter one, to just say he spun would actually seem odd to me as it would speed up the pace which is the opposite of what has happened every time I've been in similar situations. When I rolled my four-wheeler, it felt like forever before I slammed into the ground and another eternity before it rolled onto me. Same with the incident with a tree that was fell over and hanging in a narrow ravine around a sharp corner. I got clothes-lined at about 30 by the time I slowed down, but it went from everything whizzing by me in a blur to matrix like slow-mo the moment I saw the tree and words "Oh crap!" left my mouth (The g-rated version for the sake of mixed company).

[Jeff Gerke]

veryblessed, I've just read your first two posts. I like them both.

I am NOT of the school that says you should leave out description so that the reader may be free to imagine. That kind of thing has you writing "the room" or "the person" or "outside" instead of actually painting a picture.

You function as the camera. If you don't describe it, the reader can't see it. If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage (of the reader's imagination).

Some people want to eliminate description because it looks like telling. It's not action or dialogue, so it must be bad. I applaud the effort to remove telling, but description is not telling.

Telling is when you stop the story to explain something we don't care about or should be shown dramatically. Description is necessary or the story can't go forward. If I can't see what's going on, as far as I'm concerned it's a bunch of shrouded figures floating around in a nebula. The story has stopped because I can't imagine it.

But now you have to deal with this problem: what do you do when writing experts disagree?

In my tips and in my book I have two teachings following one upon the other. The first is "Be Teachable," in which I suggest you try out every expert's advice to see which one works better for you. The second is "Stop Being Teachable," in which I urge you to make a choice and simply choose to be okay with not pleasing every expert.

Just know that some gatekeeper may want you to do things the other way, the way you've decided you don't want to do. At that point you have another decision to make: do I change my style to get through this gate or do I stick with my decision and hope to find another gate later?

Jeff