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Post by Cully the Swamp Walker on Aug 24, 2009 12:41:08 GMT -5
Recently, I have received some negative feedback regarding "cliches" used in a book I am writing. These comments have come from folks who do not have a background in fantasy. It got me wondering . . . are we addicted to cliches? Don't we all already know what the wizard will look like and essentially how his power will be used? Don't we know how the dragon will behave, and that the downtrodden hero or heroine will, through integrity, honesty, wit and perhaps a magic sword or other ancient relic win the day? Yet we don't care. Am I right? Don't we like our fantasy the way we like our fantasy -- cliche or not?
My book is full of fantasy cliches, if you will, but they are tweaked, morphed into something fresh. To me, that is okay. It's my experience that this kind of thing is okay with all fantasy lovers. Am I way off base here?
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catofninetales
Junior Member
People are the only thing you can take with you to heaven.
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Post by catofninetales on Aug 24, 2009 13:56:20 GMT -5
Well, you know the critique rule of thumb: if two or three people point out the same specific spot, take a listen. If it's hit-and-miss, take it with a grain of salt. K.M. Weiland has an interesting post about how genre can create or possibly kill a career here: wordplay-kmweiland.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-genre-writing-could-kill-your.html It seems to speak to the question you're expressing. |
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Post by Cully the Swamp Walker on Aug 24, 2009 14:30:06 GMT -5
I should have worded my first sentence differently. In fact, I have received ONE negative comment regarding cliches in my book. The main point of my post was to see if the rest of you agreed that, in general, fantasy lovers don't mind cliche as much perhaps as the fan of literary fiction.
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Post by torainfor on Aug 24, 2009 19:57:25 GMT -5
I'm a casual fantasy reader, but I find it difficult to write. If I try to write with typical European fantasy creatures (elves, pixies, what have you) I can't help but to make it sarcastic and snarky. If it's to be serious, I find myself way out in left field with Native American legends.
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Post by dizzyjam on Aug 24, 2009 20:45:47 GMT -5
First of all, I think a fantasy with Native American legends would be a great breaking of the mold. Write it with a Christian theme and get it to Jeff as fast as you can! Another fantasy that seems - so far - to not get into all the cliches, because most of what we consider fantasy isn't in effect, is Kevin J. Anderson's new Terra Incognita trilogy. Book 1 is called The Edge of the World. Imagine two nations with religions that both worshiped the same God through two different messengers and they both came to a city that was holy to them. This city literally divided them North and South with one nation and religion, the Aidenists, up North and the other, the Urecari, South. A historic day happens with the signing of a peace treaty between the kings of these nations at Ishalem the holy city, but soon after a tragic accident causes the city to burn in flames. The holy war that follows lasts for years with both sides blaming the other for the tragedy. Meantime, there is a race over the uncharted waters of the oceans to find a fabled lost land that is attached to both religions. With only sea serpents and a little magic involved, this isn't your typical fantasy, but rather reads in a historic way. Yet that reading will take you to The Edge of the World. You can order it from www.anderzoneshop.com and you'll get an autographed copy from Kevin himself. If you don't want a signature, you can just order it from Amazon or go to your local Barnes & Noble's Fantasy section. It's been a couple of months, but it might still be in the new book area. I've enjoyed it and am looking forward to next year when Book 2 The Map of All Things comes out. |
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catofninetales
Junior Member
People are the only thing you can take with you to heaven.
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Post by catofninetales on Aug 24, 2009 23:44:40 GMT -5
Cully the Swamp Walker: Ah, gotcha...Wizard? Oh, you mean musclebound latino drug-pusher wizard driving a flying car and wielding a handheld electromagnetic pulse weapon? Entirely too fond of dumping cliches on their heads, shaking out their pockets and stealing their coin, then kicking them in the shins and running away laughing. But that's just my personal preference. I have a writerly principle that tropes are tools for expressing known assumptions, but then challenging them against the previously unknown or unconsidered.
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Post by metalikhan on Aug 25, 2009 2:52:46 GMT -5
I think the key of what you wrote is in making something fresh with known situations and character types, defeating the established expectations that come in a particular kind of story. This can be applied to any genre. The conflicts of man against man, man against society, man against nature, and man against self are basic and affect every story spoken or written. Does this mean it's cliché? Without conflict at some level, there is no story. It doesn't matter what genre — the window-dressing for the world of a story — is being represented.
Fantasy lovers seem to dive more deeply into mythological waters; but no genre is free of mythic elements. In fantasy, those elements seem cliché because they've been so codified in stories, folk and fairy tales, and movies (such as Disney) that many of us heard or saw in childhood. Familiarity makes them seem tired and overused; and since fantasy deals most directly with them, the stories themselves are prejudged as cliché. Other genres, including sophisticated literary ones, hide the symbols born in the old myths, but this makes them no less present.
One of the challenges for the reader (and writer) of fantasy is finding a story that contains the familiar elements but makes them dance to a new tune. For example, I can think of three very different kinds of elves I've encountered in recent reading. One is the ancient and noble elf as portrayed in the LOTR books. Another kind is the filthy and enslaved house-elf as in the Harry Potter series. A third is the self-centered and coldly cruel elf of the kind that shows up in some of Terry Pratchett's books. Each type has a valid mythological background behind it; but in each case, the writer chose to focus on a particular aspect selected from that wide background.
Another challenge is finding a story that pulls its mythic elements from less familiar milieu. The Native American mythology mentioned earlier is one example. Others might include Oriental, Indian, Polynesian, African. Very little fantasy, aside from the Mummy movies, has touched on the old Egyptian mythologies. Even the familiar Greek, Roman, European, and British mythologies contain facets that have rarely (if ever) been explored in a fantasy.
For Christians who love fantasy, the even greater challenge is finding such stories that also reveal God's sovereignty and Christ's redemption, whether it is presented forthright or masked in allegory and symbolism.
Not an easy addiction!
I love it!
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Post by Cully the Swamp Walker on Aug 25, 2009 9:46:38 GMT -5
I think the key of what you wrote is in making something fresh with known situations and character types, defeating the established expectations that come in a particular kind of story. This can be applied to any genre. The conflicts of man against man, man against society, man against nature, and man against self are basic and affect every story spoken or written. Does this mean it's cliché? Without conflict at some level, there is no story. It doesn't matter what genre — the window-dressing for the world of a story — is being represented. Fantasy lovers seem to dive more deeply into mythological waters; but no genre is free of mythic elements. In fantasy, those elements seem cliché because they've been so codified in stories, folk and fairy tales, and movies (such as Disney) that many of us heard or saw in childhood. Familiarity makes them seem tired and overused; and since fantasy deals most directly with them, the stories themselves are prejudged as cliché. Other genres, including sophisticated literary ones, hide the symbols born in the old myths, but this makes them no less present. One of the challenges for the reader (and writer) of fantasy is finding a story that contains the familiar elements but makes them dance to a new tune. For example, I can think of three very different kinds of elves I've encountered in recent reading. One is the ancient and noble elf as portrayed in the LOTR books. Another kind is the filthy and enslaved house-elf as in the Harry Potter series. A third is the self-centered and coldly cruel elf of the kind that shows up in some of Terry Pratchett's books. Each type has a valid mythological background behind it; but in each case, the writer chose to focus on a particular aspect selected from that wide background. Another challenge is finding a story that pulls its mythic elements from less familiar milieu. The Native American mythology mentioned earlier is one example. Others might include Oriental, Indian, Polynesian, African. Very little fantasy, aside from the Mummy movies, has touched on the old Egyptian mythologies. Even the familiar Greek, Roman, European, and British mythologies contain facets that have rarely (if ever) been explored in a fantasy. For Christians who love fantasy, the even greater challenge is finding such stories that also reveal God's sovereignty and Christ's redemption, whether it is presented forthright or masked in allegory and symbolism. Not an easy addiction! I love it! Agreed. If rehab existed, I wouldn't go voluntarily. |
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Post by morganlbusse on Aug 25, 2009 9:49:07 GMT -5
Good question cbryant  I'm a fantasy lover, but I will admit I get turned off from a book that sounds cliche. I enjoy reading something new and fresh. However, if you get me hooked on your characters, I am more forgiving of the cliches The nice thing about writing fantasy is that one is not confined to this world. Whatever one dreams of can be done! So in my personal opinion, be creative... think of races that no one has ever thought of... places no one has ever gone... powers that no one has ever done. Leave the map for uncharted territory (;P) Some examples of this are Stephanie Meyer's vampires who are good? and vegetarians. Terry Brook's The Magical Kingdom of Landover where a lawyer from our world purchases a magical kingdom. Ella Enchanted where the "gift" is the girl must always obey a command. |
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Post by Cully the Swamp Walker on Aug 25, 2009 9:59:49 GMT -5
Good question cbryant I'm a fantasy lover, but I will admit I get turned off from a book that sounds cliche. I enjoy reading something new and fresh. However, if you get me hooked on your characters, I am more forgiving of the cliches The nice thing about writing fantasy is that one is not confined to this world. Whatever one dreams of can be done! So in my personal opinion, be creative... think of races that no one has ever thought of... places no one has ever gone... powers that no one has ever done. Leave the map for uncharted territory (;P) Some examples of this are Stephanie Meyer's vampires who are good? and vegetarians. Terry Brook's The Magical Kingdom of Landover where a lawyer from our world purchases a magical kingdom. Ella Enchanted where the "gift" is the girl must always obey a command. I agree with everything you've written, but would you agree that we are more tolerant of cliches. For example, the dragons in Feist's "Magician" series are truly not very different than Paolini's or Hobbs, but it just doesn't bother me. Yes, as metaliken pointed out, you can find many different depictions of elves, but most commonly we encounter the Tolkien type elf that we all know and love. Once again, that doesn't bother me. Am I alone, or as a whole are we more tolerant? Have we accepted that elves, dwarves, wizards, dragons, etc are supposed to behave a certain way, and so accept that? Perhaps, the better question isn't are we tolerant of cliches, but rather have we become comfortable with certain predictable features in our fantasy characters, creatures and races? |
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catofninetales
Junior Member
People are the only thing you can take with you to heaven.
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Post by catofninetales on Aug 25, 2009 12:31:28 GMT -5
Well, I'll read a book of any genre, as long as it holds my attention. I think murder-mystery readers are just as inclined to their cliches. Romance readers seem to find them de rigeur, to judge by what makes up the market. I would say it's not more or less addicted, but addicted to different things, and unresponsive to others' addictions due to that space already being occupied.
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Post by Cully the Swamp Walker on Aug 25, 2009 12:41:05 GMT -5
Well, I'll read a book of any genre, as long as it holds my attention. I think murder-mystery readers are just as inclined to their cliches. Romance readers seem to find them de rigeur, to judge by what makes up the market. I would say it's not more or less addicted, but addicted to different things, and unresponsive to others' addictions due to that space already being occupied. Perhaps you have a point. Maybe I/we are addicted simply to the genre. We love the fantasy and have formed bonds with these characters, places and races so strong that we don't care how often they recur. We love them and enjoy visiting them again and again, whether their outward appearances have changed quite a lot or very little at all. But, to contradict myself, I do enjoy those who mix it up a bit. I particularly appreciate how Robin Hobb has handled magic in her Farseer and Tawny Man trilogies. The magic seems to be more of a peripheral issue, something that augments Fitz character rather than defining it completely. I also think her ideas of The Wit and The Skill are quite new and creative. I appreciate that. I think this is in contrast with Paolini. I really don't like his treatment of magic. In fact, I am very bored with his series as a whole, and doubt if I will read the fourth installment. He really lost my interest with Brisingr. |
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Post by metalikhan on Aug 25, 2009 21:17:24 GMT -5
For me, fantasy is a little like going to a family reunion (the good kind) and catching up on all the news with favorite relatives, listening to the old folks recount their heydays, playing with the kids and cooing over the newborns — and every once in a while, meeting a cousin or in-law that came from another part of the country or world.
It's also a great escape for those too-real days when I come home drenched in cat pee or splattered with ferret barf.
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Post by waldenwriter on Sept 2, 2009 23:27:53 GMT -5
There are a LOT of fantasy clichés. Elves are one, although as somebody pointed out, there is some variety, from Tolkien's noble Eldar to Rowling's house-elves, who possess some magical abilities even human wizards and witches do not and must obey any order given to them by whoever owns them (though they can be freed from an owner by being given clothes, which is what happened to Dobby).
I have found that elves themselves are portrayed many ways in fairy tales and fantasy; sometimes they are the size of a human being and other times they are really tiny.
One twist I have seen on the elf idea is in an animated series called Shadow of the Elves, which I found as a $1 DVD somewhere. In it, fairies, trolls, and elves all live in a tiny world within our own called the Meadowlands. (The story is mainly about the fairies and the elves; the trolls are pretty much just mindless brutes included for comic relief). The twist is that the elves are the bad guys. Things get more complicated when a fairy girl falls in love with an elfin commander.
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Post by beckyminor on Sept 3, 2009 8:19:24 GMT -5
*chuckle* Love between humans and demi-humans is always sticky, isn't it? Sort of the West Side Story of fantasy...
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