The Christian analogue on the Fantasy World

[tk1912]

So how does a version of Christianity show up in the fantasy world? Does it already exist? Or is the fantasy world waiting for a "Christ event" of some kind?

My thoughts (in keeping with what I wrote in the MacGuffin Thread) would be that the fantasy world doesn't realize that they're sitting on the "Christ event," which would be kind of fun, I think.

Along those lines, if we go with the pantheon of gods that Pixy has created, it might be fun to add a "Hidden God" that very few people have heard of. Most that have dismiss Him as old legends, odd ideas with no power behind them. But there are a faithful few (I'm thinking maybe a dozen at most) who know that the "Hidden God" is about to break into their world in a major way. They eagerly await it to happen.

Thoughts?

[dulci]

I like the hidden God idea!

Okay, I know I'm pulling together a bunch of random thoughts across the boards here...

But what if, when the scifi world collides with the fantasy world, that some of the fantasy people believe the scifi people to be the gods that they worshipped? I mean, obviously, they'd have the tech and marvels to make it look as such. Or maybe that's cliche...?

But what if the scifi people, the factions that are the underground good and slip in underneath the noses of the masquerading "gods" start showing the fantasy people the real God, the one they've always heard/dreamed about and never really seen? And maybe they've (fantasy people) caught glimpses of through the "future-looking," but it was really workings in the believers of the scifi world?

[lexkx]

Weeell....

In Paul's 'Mars Hill' sermon (it's in Acts), he talks about how the citizens have an alter to an unknown god. I like the idea that the people, though they worship false gods, are searching for the one true god. Why would God hide amongst a pantheistic belief system?

I do like your idea about the SF people masquerading as gods. Let's use it!

In Him,
Lex

[tk1912]

Some more thoughts on the whole "Hidden God" business...

The term "Hidden God," in the story at least, is a derogatory name given to the followers of said God by their opponents. They call their God hidden because, unlike the other gods in the Lythian pantheon, there is no astronomical object to represent Him. Even the followers of Idok (if we go with him) say that their god has a heavenly sign, namely the blackness that encircles all the other gods (hence proving that Idok is bigger and more powerful). The followers of the Hidden God have adopted this name as a badge of honor. I'll explain why in a bit.

It turns out that the Hidden God is the source of all magic in Lythia. He is the one who gives the Lythians their abilities (similar to the way that the real God gives gifts and abilities to all people regardless of whether or not they're Christian). But with the magical gifts, the Hidden God also gives "the hunger." When people use their magical gifts, they hunger for more.

This hunger drives them into deeper study of their magic. The thing is, the more they learn and the more they're able to do, the hungrier they get. The point is to drive them to certain arch-wizards (for lack of a better term) who can teach them how to satisfy the hunger once and for all, namely through service and dedication to the Hidden God and His ways.

The problem is that not all magic users follow the hunger through to its intended conclusion. Some ignore the hunger and pretend it’s not there. Others try to fill it in other ways. Still others suspect that the Hidden God could deal with their hunger, but don’t want to because there’s a code of conduct that wizards dedicated to the Hidden God must follow (i.e. not to use their powers to kill, etc.) that they don’t wish to adhere to.

One of the things that the arch-wizards teach is why they’re content to call their God “Hidden.” The reason stems from their understanding of the magic: the magic is just a foretaste and a faint glimmer of what the Hidden God is truly capable of. They believe that a time is coming when the Hidden God will fully reveal Himself and what He’s capable of and they eagerly look forward to that time when the veil is ripped away and their God wipes away all the false gods.


As for why I chose the name Hidden God, it’s actually a term used by Martin Luther to describe the real God. Luther used the Latin, Deus Absconditus, when he wrote (a summary of it can be found here: www.iep.utm.edu/l/luther.htm#SH2d). The idea is that God only truly reveals Himself through Christ. That’s the only way that humans can truly and fully encounter God, because to encounter Him face-to-face in any other way is lethal (think Exodus 33:20).

[pixydust]

Oh, I like the hidden god. That's perfect.

[mongoose]

I hope you won't take my discomfort with this concept personally. It's a good concept, literarilly. 'twould make a good story, and a feasable religious background for what's going on, especially if we want to combine the use of magic with worship of the one true God.

But therein lies the rub. I DON'T think we should try to combine the two, unless it's in a very minor way. Such as, some worship the one True God, and he acts on their behalf, and those out of the know take it for magic. Even the magic generating a hunger that leads the mages to the arch-mages poses a theological problem for me. That is, you are right that God gives gifts to all people regardless of their belief in Him, or lack thereof, but these gifts are not generally supernatural. Then, there are those who believe in him, and do or do not make good use of the gifts he gave them from birth, but still do not walk in the supernatural power that he offers them through His Holy Spirit. And then you have those who abide in Him, and are filled with His Spirit, and through whom he works in signs and wonders and miracles etc. To apply this to your scenario, the mages would have to be hugely limited until they adopted the faith of the Arch-Mages, and then their power would have to increase dramatically.

Also, you'd have to have the deceiver in there somewhere, concocting false magics, if you will, that would look authentic, but really lead people away from the truth offered by the arch-mages.

And is the truth available to any who are not born with the natural ability to use magic?

Just some things to consider.

Now, throughout the history of the Earth there have been those that saught truth and power from falshood, not knowing of the Truth, and to whom God revealed Himself anyway. There were the Magi (astrologers) from the east who came to worship the Son of God. There was a witch doctor or shaman on the Samoan Islands. He told his people of his vision, and they believed, and when the missionaries came from europe or the American continent, or whatever, there was a massive island wide conversion to the Truth. Likewise in a village on the shores of the Hudson Bay. Also, according to Stephen Lawhead, there were Druid believers in Christ before Saint Patric evangelized Ireland. Legend had it that an angelic messenger had come to their land 500 years earlier announcing Christ's death and ressurrection when it occured, and a few of them had believed ever since.

So I could see some mages being believers in Host, or Hidden God, or whatever we decide to call Him, but I can't see Him allowing any and all mages to use His power to their own ends. Not if we're being allegorical, seeing as how real life witches can not use the power of God, or rather, He is unlikely to work on their behalf.

[von]

Mar 20, 2007 17:05:48 GMT -5 mongoose said:

I hope you won't take my discomfort with this concept personally. It's a good concept, literarilly. 'twould make a good story, and a feasable religious background for what's going on, especially if we want to combine the use of magic with worship of the one true God.

But therein lies the rub. I DON'T think we should try to combine the two, unless it's in a very minor way. Such as, some worship the one True God, and he acts on their behalf, and those out of the know take it for magic. Even the magic generating a hunger that leads the mages to the arch-mages poses a theological problem for me. That is, you are right that God gives gifts to all people regardless of their belief in Him, or lack thereof, but these gifts are not generally supernatural. Then, there are those who believe in him, and do or do not make good use of the gifts he gave them from birth, but still do not walk in the supernatural power that he offers them through His Holy Spirit. And then you have those who abide in Him, and are filled with His Spirit, and through whom he works in signs and wonders and miracles etc. To apply this to your scenario, the mages would have to be hugely limited until they adopted the faith of the Arch-Mages, and then their power would have to increase dramatically.

Also, you'd have to have the deceiver in there somewhere, concocting false magics, if you will, that would look authentic, but really lead people away from the truth offered by the arch-mages.

And is the truth available to any who are not born with the natural ability to use magic?

Just some things to consider.

Now, throughout the history of the Earth there have been those that saught truth and power from falshood, not knowing of the Truth, and to whom God revealed Himself anyway. There were the Magi (astrologers) from the east who came to worship the Son of God. There was a witch doctor or shaman on the Samoan Islands. He told his people of his vision, and they believed, and when the missionaries came from europe or the American continent, or whatever, there was a massive island wide conversion to the Truth. Likewise in a village on the shores of the Hudson Bay. Also, according to Stephen Lawhead, there were Druid believers in Christ before Saint Patric evangelized Ireland. Legend had it that an angelic messenger had come to their land 500 years earlier announcing Christ's death and ressurrection when it occured, and a few of them had believed ever since.

So I could see some mages being believers in Host, or Hidden God, or whatever we decide to call Him, but I can't see Him allowing any and all mages to use His power to their own ends. Not if we're being allegorical, seeing as how real life witches can not use the power of God, or rather, He is unlikely to work on their behalf.

I certainly understand this problem.

In one of my books I had magic, but it was all illusional. And the Christ metaphor destroyed the illusion. Indeed a 'Christian' couldn't even see it!

A short scene might demonstrate what I did:

“What is true rock?” asked the father.“And true silver?” asked Ruth.
“You have never heard of true rock? Or the stone farmlands where I come from?”
“Well, I have certainly heard of your home country right enough,” responded the father. “Much of the grain and other things that we buy are said to come from there… altho sometimes I have my doubts about some of it, the quality is so low.”
“If it is of poor quality then it doesn’t come from us, that’s for sure. But I am surprised then that you haven’t heard of true rock. True rock is what makes the stone farmland what it is.”
“It is some kind of rock?” Asked Matthias.
“Well, yes it is rock… and it looks pretty ordinary, kind of a dull gray. But it isn’t ordinary at all… when thou art touching true rock you have to tell the truth or you get burnt.”
“What?”
“Yep… and it is said that it makes magic impossible. Not that I would know anything about that… I have never seen any magic. Its funny, from what I had been told I had thought I would see a lot on this trip, but since I have been on my walkabout I haven’t seen anything that looks at all magical to me.”
“You just haven’t been paying proper attention then, why half the clothes we have on right now are made with magic.” Interjected the mother.
“Not the underwear tho. My grandmother, bless her soul, said to me ‘Sarah,’ she said, ‘never make your underwear with magic, and don’t make any for anyone that you care about either!’ I would ask and ask her why, but she never told me. Told me it was none of my business and too embarrassing a story to relate. So I never have… not one person in my family has ever had magic underclothes.” Suddenly she blushed, realizing she was going on about her family’s underclothing in front of company.
“Anyway, a lot of our other clothes are made out of magic. It is always brighter and more attractive. I must say it doesn’t seem to keep one as warm though… oh, you feel warm enough, but I have never been convinced that it actually keeps us from getting sick. I always make them wear their real clothes when it is cold out.”
Daniel frowned slightly. He had never noticed the family dressing in anything he considered especially bright or attractive. Of course, compared to what he was used to they had never seemed to be even dressed at all most of the time. The women both wore those thin white dresses (with nothing underneath, he had noticed to his discomfort), the boys just some dingy shorts tied up with string. Only the father seemed decently dressed, with what he had heard called overalls and a short sleeved shirt underneath… nothing at all bright or colorful. They did have some nice warm clothes though, he had seem some nice long warm clothes hanging in Jonathan’s closet and in the hallway.
“Well, anyway, that’s what I’ve heard about it. True steel and true silver are even stronger, and heavier. Our weapons are all made of true steel. You take your engagement oath with your hands on true stone, and you hang a ring around your neck made of true silver… on a chain of true silver for that matter.”
“Oh, is that that ring that you always wear on the chain around your neck?” Asked Ruth. “Can I see it?”
“Sure… but I can’t take it off… here, see,” so saying he pulled his chain from beneath his shirt.
“You can’t take it off?” queried Ruth, leaning forward.
“No… that would be like I wanted to renounce my engagement vow… it would be very upsetting to my fiancée… the girl I am going to marry.”
“Can I touch it?” she asked, leaning further.
“Sure… no harm in that”
“Owwww!!” She screamed, pulling her hand back from the ring.
Everyone stared at her in shock, as she sat abruptly back down, and alternated putting her hand in her mouth and staring at it.
“What did you do to me?” She shrieked out. “Why did it sting me like that? And why did it show me such weird things??”
“I don’t understand. It stung you? What weird things?”
“Can I touch it?” Matthias was interested… besides being a boy he wanted to show how brave and unbothered he was.
“No!” Said his mother. “And let it sting you like your sister?”
“Awww ma, she’s just a girl…” began Matthias, when his father interrupted.
“Yes. You may. But hold firmly even when it stings.”
Matthias (and his mother) stared in shock at his father. “Don’t worry Sarah,” he said, “I know what I am doing.”
Slowly, hesitantly (he was much more impressed with his mothers frantic ‘no’ than with his fathers deliberate ‘yes’) Matthias reached out toward the ring. Touching it he drew quickly back, but, seeing his fathers stern commanding eye, he reached forward again and grasped the ring firmly in his hand, closing his eyes with the pain.
Seconds past, and Matthias sat there, trembling, his hand closed around the ring, his eyes tightly shut, his face pale. After what seemed like an eternity to those watching he gradually relaxed, and stopped trembling. A minute later he opened his eyes,
“Wow. That hurt. It is much better now tho. It’s like when your toes warm up on a very cold day… say!” He exclaimed, looking around the room, “what??”
His eyes roamed around the room… widening dramatically as they passed over his mother and sister. They covered the ceiling and the walls… in his eagerness he turned all the way around in his seat, awkwardly clutching the ring behind him. “Weird!!”
“What is it?” Asked his mother, less nervous now.
“Everything is different… everything looks different. Well, not everything. Daniel isn’t different at all. The chairs look pretty much the same… but everything else is really different.”
“Different how?”
“Well, the walls for example, they don’t have any pictures or hangings on them.” (Now it was Daniel’s turn to stare confusedly around him. Pictures? Hangings? Where?)
“And the table doesn’t have its cloth on it… and, ummm, other stuff.”
Ruth sat up and stared at Matthias. She had heard that particular tone of voice before, the one he had just used when he had said ‘other stuff’, and had had very bad experiences with it. He used it, for example, when he did not want to tell her that he had just broken some of her things that he wasn’t supposed to have been touching.
“Matthias… what ‘other stuff’??”
Matthias, who likewise had heard that tone of voice before decided that he did not need this kind of grief and quickly let go of the ring and shrank down into his chair, “oh, just other stuff.”