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Post by paischaros on Oct 17, 2007 20:52:08 GMT -5
Hehe, I have Eragon, but I haven't read it yet And I haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about. Care to elaborate? Yeah, peasant boy might not work too well. I just kinda...threw it out there, to be honest. It's only recently that I decided for it to NOT be a crossover story between worlds, so I had to think of something different for my boy character to be. Right now I'm at a stand still with him. But I think that once I'm able to develop Emtia a bit more, the world will tell me who he is.
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Post by remadegold on Oct 18, 2007 8:06:51 GMT -5
On the world without a Saviour... you're thinking a world with no hero at this junction? Or is it a world without religous faith? Actually, I was working on something similar at one point. (Due to some of the content the story was leaning to, I scrapped the project.) It does work, but I should warn you it has the potential to create a situation where the protagonist cannot win. If he does, you then have a "savior" of sorts. He can't win, and will likely die. At least, that's what happened in my thing. Then...mine was nothing like this, and I was trying to create a situation where the only thing he managed to do was create the potential for change, not change itself. Nice to see you, Taras. 0=)
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Post by remadegold on Oct 18, 2007 8:13:03 GMT -5
Readers want unlikely heroes. What's so cool about a likely hero? One word: Aragorn. The likely hero works, he just has to be carefully crafted. Frankly, it's the "unlikely" ones you immediately know will be "likely." I think the trick, Taras, will be in the delivery. You can use a classic "peasant boy" device if you put a good twist to it. Just don't write Luke Skywalker. Teasing. Also, and this is directed more generally: I'd advise against saying 'don't do this' because it's a personal dislike. I personally am not a huge fan of time-travel or world-travel, but a good story I'll enjoy regardless. Same with my dislike of female characters. As a rule, I don't like female characters. But there's always the exception. Write what you will. The art's in the telling. Also, if you find The Snowflake too daunting, Brandilyn Collins' "Getting into Character" follows a less-structured pattern. I wound up using a mix of the snowflake, Collins, and James Scott Bell's methods. Insane, but works.
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Post by remadegold on Oct 18, 2007 8:21:20 GMT -5
Back to the cliche thing (I know I know, it was a while back) I'm not saying make something cliched in another way like a supremely likely hero, just make it someone who is not the most unlikely hero, change it just the tiniest bit even. Make it a shopkeeper's son, or a palace guard in the right place at the right time, something different than a freaking peasant kid who becomes uber hero. If that's what you want to do as I am not going knock on your door and stop you so feel free to smash me into the dirt with an amazing novel, however think about it. The most used cliche or something at least a bit new and fresh if not original. And for all of us avid readers learn the basic concept of time (as Mr. Christopher Paolini apparently does not grasp that concept, feel free to ask me about this if you have not read Eragon or haven't the faintest clue what I am talking about I happen to like this idea and was going to suggest something similar. Equip the kid. You remember my character Danny. Barely reads and doesn't know much beyond survival skills and killing people. But that's exactly what makes him really good at keeping people alive. It also makes him really good at learning and retaining information quickly. So yeah. Actually, a low or mid-level position in the palace gives him more incentive to help the unicorns and a reason to run into the remaining princess. Another fun idea would be if there is no connection, but he somehow came across her missing father, who got him into this mess, but can't or won't tell her that much. She likely wouldn't believe it even if he did. Or something. I'm rambling when I need breakfast and coffee.
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Post by sparrow on Oct 18, 2007 9:54:52 GMT -5
And for all of us avid readers learn the basic concept of time (as Mr. Christopher Paolini apparently does not grasp that concept, feel free to ask me about this if you have not read Eragon or haven't the faintest clue what I am talking about I, for one, would love to hear your thoughts on this. I have a more than average interest in the concept of time, but don't know what your refering to here. I didn't read Eragon, but watched the movie. Did the author's interpretation of time that your referring to occur in the movie? I didn't notice.
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Post by sparrow on Oct 18, 2007 10:28:13 GMT -5
Readers want unlikely heroes. What's so cool about a likely hero? Same with my dislike of female characters. As a rule, I don't like female characters. But there's always the exception. remadegold, welcome to the group. I have to say your statement above is the reason that one of my MC's is male. I have two main protaganists, each set in their own time. My original idea had both of them female with their secondary male counterparts. Of course that is a natural first inclination for me since I am a woman, but I realized if I want men to read this book as well I needed to change that. I am also thinking of using a gender generic pen name as well. It is a truth that more women read fiction written by men than men will read fiction written by a woman. So if we women want to capture the entire audience we must be wise about it. I would change them both but then I would lose the premise of my story. Besides I like my female protaganist. What do you think the chances are of your picking up a book with the protags split like that? (I'm asking this of all you guys as I thought about asking about this before the subject came up here. And yes, I know he has to be written with a voice that is convincingly male. Being married for over thirty years to a strong willed man makes me believe I can write it.
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Post by remadegold on Oct 18, 2007 11:44:39 GMT -5
remadegold, welcome to the group. Thanks. 0=) I have to say your statement above is the reason that one of my MC's is male. I have two main protaganists, each set in their own time. My original idea had both of them female with their secondary male counterparts. Of course that is a natural first inclination for me since I am a woman, but I realized if I want men to read this book as well I needed to change that. I am also thinking of using a gender generic pen name as well. It is a truth that more women read fiction written by men than men will read fiction written by a woman. So if we women want to capture the entire audience we must be wise about it. I would change them both but then I would lose the premise of my story. Besides I like my female protaganist. The biggest problem I've had is convincing a guy friend that Karen Hanc.ock's "The Light of Eidon" book wasn't a romance. Due to the cover, it sort of looks like it at first. I assured him the man and woman were twins, not lovers. Also, having male secondary characters would not be a turn-off for me as long as the male characters were equally strong as characters. Edit: Oh, that's hilarious. The overzealous filter won't let me say Karen's last name. What do you think the chances are of your picking up a book with the protags split like that? (I'm asking this of all you guys as I thought about asking about this before the subject came up here. And yes, I know he has to be written with a voice that is convincingly male. Being married for over thirty years to a strong willed man makes me believe I can write it. I think I forgot to mention I'm a woman. 0=) Don't worry; that happens all the time on forums. My problem with female characters is that they either turn into men with bras (Xena, Trinity, the girl from Underworld--I forget her name) or spineless, brainless little saps who do nothing but whine, swoon, and scream. Above all, no screaming damsels. I beg of you. Examples of female characters I like: - Desiree in "Reluctant Burglar" and its sequel "Reluctant Runaway"
- Carissa, Shattai, and Madeline from Karen Hanc.ock's books
- Kale from The DragonKeeper series (double props for Donita Paul---not only is Kale female, but in the first one she's only twelve, which is usually another turn-off)
- Bonnie and Ashley in Dragons in our Midst
- Valkerie in Oxygen
- the girl in Premonition...Rivka?
- Trieu in Operation Firebrand
- Lucy, Chronicles of Narnia
- Eowyn, Lord of the Rings
I feel like I'm missing several, but you get the idea. I generally like Ted Dekker's female characters as well. Split protagonists? You mean one male and one female. I actually prefer a "team" to a single hero. But if they kiss without warning (Bourne Identity...yeesh) or a classic romantic thing starts off and it seems to me unwarranted (yes, I've seen writers force the romance), it'll turn me off. That's a really long answer to a short question. Basically, the gender of the main character isn't the first thing I look at. The first thing I judge by is the title and cover. Movies -- the trailer. Second, the back of the book. I would, however, be more likely to pick up a book with paired characters.
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Post by paischaros on Oct 18, 2007 12:45:23 GMT -5
Hi Remmie!!! *waves* Good to see you here Yeah, that's why I want a main boy and a main girl in my story. I don't think I could pull it off if I just had a girl or just a boy. And since this is a unicorn story and not many boys/guys are into unicorns, I want to have that strong male character alongside of my female character.
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Post by sparrow on Oct 18, 2007 14:56:26 GMT -5
What I mean by split protaganist is that the telling of this story will be done in two seperate time eras, one adding clarity to the events of the other. Both time periods are separate and will have their own plot lines with the events of one time period being the main interest of the story (this is where my worldbuilding comes in). Both time periods have a main character, or I should say main couple with their own journey. The main lead in one will be a man and the main lead in the other time will be a woman. These MC's do not ever meet. Sorry that I missed you were a woman. That's what I get for reading through the posts too quickly. You know, its that multi-tasking thing. LOL It's not much of an excuse but its all there is. And thanks for the list. I'll have to have a look at some of the ones I'm not familiar with. Of course LOR is one I recognize. Bonnie Silver and Lucy from the Chronicles of Narnia. I haven't read nearly enough fantasy novels as I should, not because I wouldn't have liked to but because I felt unequipt to choose good fantasy fiction over dark fantasy. Since once I pick up a book I am likely not to put it down, I have always steered away from stories I'm unsure of. One reason why finding Christians that are knowledgeable in the genre is good for me. Now on to multitasking. I have to go pick up my daughter from school and I will spare you the list of the rest of my tasks.
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Post by J Jack on Oct 18, 2007 15:28:51 GMT -5
Alright, now to explain the whole time thing. In many novels (I'll pick on Eragon only because it is so blatant) the main character is way too adept at learning a skill (let's pick on swordfighting for now) In the real world (for even the quickest learner) it takes years and years of training to become so skilled with a blade. This is not so with our hero in Eragon who picks it up in a few months in traveling time. We shall pick on the travel times later. So how does a young boy with no knowledge of a sword, learn so quickly? DO NOT argue that he is obviously uber super hero and should learn so quickly as that is the worst cop out ever! It just doesn't happen. As well as the sword being around five feet long when most boys his age are...five to six feet tall. So how does one wield a sword as long as himself (or herself but for this example etc etc) One does not is the most obvious answer, as well as him not being strong enough to wield it with any sort of control. Now the real problem of time. In the novel, the hero travels quite quickly over massive areas in amounts of time reserved for people in cars. Six months to walk/ride as far as he did, not working for me. Argue he has a dragon all you want but in the beginning he always had to double back to meet up with his mentor. So, this is the problem that I faced while reading it, and many other authors make the same mistakes as they think that traveling should not play a huge part (at least make it realistic) (totally unrelated, never use stew as travel food as it takes many hours to make a good hearty stew to sustain a traveler) So, as you may or may not understand now (I'm sorry, I tried my best) the concept of time is not something incorporated into many novels, and please don't argue that they have some sort of special ability being super hero because that is the lamest explanation ever. So please please please do a few things to pacify this grumpy critic (: Use grammar appropriate for your audience (don't use big words if you want younger people to read it, don't flaunt the fact that you have a thesaurus cause most people do) Grasp the concept of time! Use proper time for distances used (no one travels 100 miles on horseback in an hour) Get some help on topics like swords and weapons (if writing fantasy) so you can properly train your characters and again use the proper time constraints. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't be a Paolini (that means only get work published if it's actually any good) Thats my rant for the day and if you still need clarifying, theres a good website where they talk about stuff like this, just mention you want it and I'll try to sift through old emails and find it.
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Post by remadegold on Oct 18, 2007 17:04:24 GMT -5
What I mean by split protaganist is that the telling of this story will be done in two seperate time eras, one adding clarity to the events of the other. Both time periods are separate and will have their own plot lines with the events of one time period being the main interest of the story (this is where my worldbuilding comes in). Both time periods have a main character, or I should say main couple with their own journey. The main lead in one will be a man and the main lead in the other time will be a woman. These MC's do not ever meet.Gotcha. Coolness. Sorry that I missed you were a woman. That's what I get for reading through the posts too quickly. You know, its that multi-tasking thing. LOL It's not much of an excuse but its all there is.You didn't miss it; I never said. It's a common error online, as I said. Apparently I sound masculine....especially when my avatar is of a male warrior. And thanks for the list. I'll have to have a look at some of the ones I'm not familiar with. Of course LOR is one I recognize. Bonnie Silver and Lucy from the Chronicles of Narnia. I haven't read nearly enough fantasy novels as I should, not because I wouldn't have liked to but because I felt unequipt to choose good fantasy fiction over dark fantasy. Since once I pick up a book I am likely not to put it down, I have always steered away from stories I'm unsure of. One reason why finding Christians that are knowledgeable in the genre is good for me. I actually haven't either. I've only in the last year or so started to read it...and I'm picky. I mostly read suspense.
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Post by remadegold on Oct 18, 2007 17:09:58 GMT -5
(no one travels 100 miles on horseback in an hour)
For reference, I think the true walking distance is about twenty (maybe twenty-four) miles a day on foot. Of course, if you stop or run into obstacles, it'll take longer.
I'll admit I probably broke the rule once, with a character that isn't human. I went online to Guinness and found out the current world record for a marathon. To keep with him being faster than a human, I made him two miles faster per hour. Would that peeve you, just curious? 0=)
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Post by sparrow on Oct 18, 2007 18:49:59 GMT -5
OIC, Sabre, you're talking about time in plausible actions. I thought you you were talking about time concepts like linear (present western concept) and circular (medieval and some indigenous peoples). I hear you on the implausibility of such stories. My experience with Eragon was to buy the movie to watch with my daughter who wants to write a fantasy type time travel. She wanted to see how a fifteen year-old that made it into publishing wrote, so we were discussing story element throughout. She's 17, was homeschooled until this year and I have been teaching her about story structure for some time. So the structure and plot were what we were focused on. I don't presently remember the implausibility of the fights, and in the movies you don't get a decent idea of how far they are traveling. It's been quite a few months since we watched it so my memory is a little fuzzy on it. And I research every rediculously tiny detail of my writing, so you needn't worry where I'm concerned. I've mapped out historical traveling times more than once.
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Post by sparrow on Oct 18, 2007 18:59:48 GMT -5
>>I'll admit I probably broke the rule once, with a character that isn't human. I went online to Guinness and found out the current world record for a marathon. To keep with him being faster than a human, I made him two miles faster per hour. Would that peeve you, just curious? 0=) <<
I think you could easily get away with a couple of extra mph if he's not human. Like Superman's not human and everyone believes he's faster than a speading train <grin> And Spiderman, he IS human and look what HE gets away with. If a character is going to do implausible things you've got give a "genre plausible" reason for his doing so.
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Post by J Jack on Oct 18, 2007 19:23:02 GMT -5
Non humans do not peeve because that is plausible BUT the misconception that Chris Paolini was 15 when Eragon was published and written does. He was 21 when it was finished, he STARTED at fifteen as do many aspiring writers. I also feel the need to point out that his book was published by his parents (to me the only reason it was published) and therefore somewhat soon to be introduced. All the hype about it is false, a good read the first time then look carefully and wonder why you found it so good. He uses words that are not suitable for a children's novel as he said it was and does so much stuff that GRRRR it just makes me angry. About the plausible reasons for being so cool it's intense, make sure they are believable! Don't say something like oh, he's blessed by God and learns quicker (in the ever immortal words of Morgan Freeman, God does not give us patience, only an opportunity to be patient. Watch Evan Almighty. Therefore God does not teach us skills, but gives us the opportunity to learn said skills.) or that he is the hero and therefore has to learn quickly. I'll use two examples from a WIP of mine. A Royal Guardsman (already trained in combat and such) becomes a hero by discovering the corrupt influences and fleeing the capital with others like him. Therefore, he does not learn any skills as he already possesses them. This is not the best, but it is a WIP so deal with it Another example of this is an "ogre-human" hybrid (still no name for these so if anyone has an idea...hint hint) who lives longer and maintains muscle mass better (he works out for an hour and looks better than a human who works out for five) Again not the best example but something of the sort. In conclusion (something my english teacher always says not to say come up with plausible reasons for heroism, something that the reader finds interesting and does not probe deeper so as to find flaws. Not 100% sure what I've written and if it helps at all, but I'm tired and on coffee, and CSI Vegas is on and I must retire to the couch and enjoy it. (Eragon would have been better if say it had been a young guard at a warehouse who discovers the egg and steals it, thus beginning he adventure and avoiding pitfalls of training)
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