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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 7, 2007 12:48:52 GMT -5
I've been reading through Revelation lately. I'm in chapter 20 now.
Satan is seized and bound for 1,000 years. There are other interpretations, but most evangelicals I know hold to the position that this 1,000 years (the "millennium") is a long period of time (1,000 years may be a symbolic number) in which some resurrected believers rule with Christ over a world with no satanic influence (Revelation 20:3-6).
Okay, so...why?
I mean, at the end of the thousand years Satan is released again (v. 7) and he goes about deceiving the nations and gathering them for war against God.
So...what is the purpose of the millennium? Certainly a thousand years in the slammer hasn't reformed the father of lies.
What would the world be like with no Satan around to kill, steal, and destroy? Would it just be him that's gone or would all his demons be gone, too? And I've got to think that humans are still, well, human even with Satan out of the picture. They still have their fleshly natures, right? Would 1,000 years ruling that world be much different than 1,000 years ruling over the world as it currently is?
Seems to me there's room for lots of stories to be told during that 1,000 year period. (I've seen at least one unpublished story like this, so I can't take credit for coming up with the idea.)
What would it be like to be one of those resurrected Christians ruling with Christ? Verse 4 seems to indicate that these people are those who lost their lives because they would not denounce Christ. So each one would have a fascinating pre-Millennium story (think Lost) and from diverse eras in history.
What would it be like to live for 1,000 years while everyone else is dying at a normal, 75-year rate?
And what does it mean that they will reign with Christ? I mean, is He there on the earth. Like in Tulsa, or something? Or do they rule with Him only in a symbolic sense?
Somebody ought to explore this. It's way off the map.
Jeff
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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on Jun 7, 2007 13:50:40 GMT -5
What is the point of the millennium? Well, i think it is very intersting that you brought this up since i had just had a conversation a few weeks ago about it and many more before.
I took a bible study on the essentials of the faith, which are a lot of things, but basically what i means to be a follower of Christ.
But when we started talking about Revelation we all agreed on that Christ was coming back and that terrible things were going to happen.
Then we talked about the millennium and i have come to believe that the thousand years on earth was made so that people could repopulate the earth.
Now i don't know who is going to do that since i don't know exactly who is going to survive the Tribulation if anyone survives at all.
But it says in, Revelation 20:7-10 (7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.)
But see in verse 8 it talks about Satan gathering people to fight against God, now, everyone who died who was Christian or believer is already perfect so we cannot sin anymore because we have perfect bodies.
So it seems as if someone had to have had children who were not perfect who could join Satan to attack God's people.
I believe that the millennium is a time when people will be born and will choose who to join. But i think God want to prove to the people who say, "Well, now, if God were here right now in front of me i would follow him," that people will reject him even when he is reigning on earth.
So that i believe to be part of the point of the millennium, besides just have a good time with God!
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Post by mongoose on Jun 7, 2007 16:38:16 GMT -5
I would remind people that Satan will strive to deceive even the elect, if it were possible. I suspect that many believers will fall away. I don't recall if this was during the Great Tribulation, or post Millennial rule, but there's so much ambiguity as far as timing is concerned anyway. I'd either have to piece it all out myself, which people have done before, badly, just try to break it down to the essential message; maybe, It's going to get way worse before it gets better, so be ready to endure torture and death, but ultimately, WE WIN!!
Yeah, it's a cop out. I'm just sick and tired of debating the timing on end times events with people who are stuck on their interpretation, when none of us really knows.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 7, 2007 17:28:48 GMT -5
True, true.
However, because no one knows, there's lots of room for sanctified imaginations to tell some cool stories with this as the backdrop.
Jeff
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Post by mongoose on Jun 9, 2007 13:36:36 GMT -5
Oh, totally. There's this little mention of the two prophets doing works of power, getting slain, and coming back, but it's mostly metaphoric, I suspect, and even if it's literal, it doesn't go into much detail. I'd love to see or write a story about one of them. And certainly some good stories could be written of the people having to deal with the persecution from the Anti-Christ and the Beast et al. I don't buy the Left Behind scenario, but obviously the idea was fairly successful. I suspect that at some point I'll explore, in one format or another, the way I expect end times events to go down.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 11, 2007 12:37:39 GMT -5
Today I was looking at that passage again. For 1,000 years Satan is taken away "so that he will no longer deceive the nations." Then at the end of that time he's released and he goes out and, big surprise, deceives the nations. He rounds them all up so they'll be conveniently gathered for their dunking in the lake of fire.
It struck me that if the earth's population had not tasted Satan's deception for 1,000 years, they would be well and truly SET UP to be deceived when Satan is unleashed on them. When someone has been fasting, that first taste of anything--even just a cracker--is like magical food. Imagine how effective Satan's deceptions would be on a race that had basically completely forgotten what true deception is like.
Yikes.
No wonder everyone--from Gog to Magog--is going to fall for it.
What about a story told at the end of the millennium? We take a few chapters to show what life is like now, with resurrected martyrs from all ages reigning the world with Christ. We show how they understand human fleshly "wrongdoing" in the world but are pretty much clueless about true evil. And then we see the sudden appearance of the most convincing, amazing being they've ever seen.
Would anyone be able to resist? Would the deception be 100% effective on all non-resurrected humans then living?
Sounds like a fun thing to go explore. Any takers?
Jeff
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Post by mongoose on Jun 11, 2007 20:02:32 GMT -5
Resurrected humans then living. Does that include those who were alive and believers at the time of the alleged Rapture?
Perhaps I should clarify. I believe the rapture takes all the believers, and no one converts post-rapture. So, those reigning during the millenium would be those who either died, or were Raptured, prior to the worst part of the Great Tribulation. I guess I'm just curious as to whether you think that group of kings and priests is limited to martyrs, or if you think it includes those who were raptured out before being killed?
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 13, 2007 8:00:12 GMT -5
I wouldn't want to come down too hard one way or another because I certainly don't know what God's going to do.
However, if I had to come down on one of the options I'd have to say that Revelation 20 seems to indicate that the millennium is ruled by Christ and the resurrected souls of people who were martyred for the name of Christ.
Talk about an elite brotherhood (and sisterhood). God's special forces. And the exact opposite of those who receive the mark of the beast and couple themselves with the wh*re of Babylon.
Interesting sidenote: It says "the rest of the dead don't come to life until the thousand years is ended." So there must be some kind of intermediate state between death and resurrection for most humans.
In seminary a friend and I postulated that the experience of "going into the light" could be that intermediate state. From the perspective of the departed soul, that journey into the light takes only a few seconds, but in reality an untold number of centuries could pass. The light, indeed, could be the light shining off God's throne in the judgment, so you emerge just in time for that, no matter how much time has passed in the temporal world.
Jeff
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 13, 2007 11:20:30 GMT -5
I've looked at the passage some more since the previous message.
It seems to me that all the remaining Christians on the earth are killed in Revelation 13:15.
Who, besides Christians, would resist worshiping the image of the Beast? Maybe some Jews. Maybe some Muslims. But if the Beast who was slain and resurrected is, as I sometimes wonder, a resurrected Muhammad, the Muslims would gladly worship it.
Maybe there will be a rapture. For the sake of my children, I dearly hope there will be. But when Satan is cast to the earth (Revelation 12) the first thing he's going to do is wipe out every Christian. Wouldn't you do that if you were him?
He uses the worship of the beast and the mark of the beast as the litmus test. If you'll worship the image or receive the mark, you're no threat to him and you can live (to be cast into the lake of fire with him later, though...). If you won't worship the image or receive the mark, you are a threat. It's a convenient way to quickly surface all the "bad guys" and get rid of them.
Is there a story here? Could there be some Christians in hiding? They live off the land so they don't need to buy or sell, so they don't need the mark of the beast. And they're out in the boonies so no one knows that they're not worshiping the image of the beast. Maybe they could survive for a while.
Imagine the world they'd be in. Knowing, perhaps, that every other Christian has been killed and they would be killed, too, if discovered. Seeing Revelation playing out before their eyes. Watching it all with open Bible. Wow.
What choice would you make in that situation? Hide out as long as possible? Or march into the nearest Mark of the Beast station and refuse to receive it? Or maybe you'd choose to go out in your own way, like by hijacking the broadcasting station and giving the gospel to everyone one last time?
Jeff
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Post by mongoose on Jun 17, 2007 1:57:16 GMT -5
Now THOSE are some stories I would go for, whether writing them here, writing them on my own elsewhere, or reading them as someone else wrote them. As I've said before, the Left Behind series doesn't work for me because I think the authors are WAY off theologically, and from what I've heard (flying a comercial jet around, viing to be the one to assasinate the Anti-Christ, God blowing up jets attacking Israel, etc.) I don't think the stories are plausible even given the premis (of the pre-trib rapture, and people get saved post-rapture.)
The way you describe it in the last post, however, you could either ignore or be ambiguous about whether the rapture has already occurred or not.
I was muling over another question I'd feel the need to address. How does the Anti-Christ rise to power, to begin with? The Left Behind movie had him already in place to assume power, but didn't explain how he got there. People complain about the European Union, or the U.N. or any other body perporting to unify people, for fear the Anti-Christ will come from or use it. But there's no way any of these organizations will be able to co-opt the U.S. prior to the fall of our government, and why would our government fall?
Or maybe the Anti-Christ would be an American, taking our cultural imperialism to the extreme throughout the Earth. I find this concept easier to believe, seeing as how we've already done this in the half of the world that's not solidly Muslim, Hindue, or Budhist. Even so, it'll take some doing if our anti-christ is to take over those regions and peoples.
The long and short is that I can't see the Great Tribulation and other end-times events going down in the current geo-political structure. Something's got to give first. What will it be? How do we write a novel featuring such a change, that sounds plausible?
I AM writing something in which things get really bad in the U.S. As they did in Israel prior to David's arrival on the scene. But even in that story the U.S. is still a threat to the United Islamic Nations, with Europe as a buffer caught in the cross fire, and East Asia sitting back with arms crossed and smug look on their faces, waiting to see who'll win, and how they can profit off of it all.
How do y'all think things could get bad enough that these disparate groups would accept one leader?
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 17, 2007 9:14:38 GMT -5
Yeah, that's a very good question, mongoose. How, indeed? I go back to the passage in Revelation that talks about the ten horns (world leaders) who rule for a very short time and whose only purpose is to hand over their power to the beast. Maybe there could be a series of assassinations and accidents (or maybe a bomb at the G8 or UN or something?) that takes out the presidents and prime ministers from the top 10 powerful nations. Then somehow (and here's where it gets iffy to me) those vice presidents and other seconds-in-command step into power but then decide they'd better surrender power to this one guy (or lady). I have to say, though, that the most plausible theory I've heard so far has been the one that includes an extraterrestrial threat. When would earth's population EVER unite? Only against a common enemy who threatens us all. The premise of my to-be-written novel, Return of the Makers, is that "bad guy" aliens attack the earth and invade and cause all kinds of havoc. Just when it looks bad for earth's inhabitants, "good guy" aliens appear and offer to help us out. Earth's population agrees and the good guys beat back the bad guys. Our protagonist sees something he's not supposed to, however: that the good guy aliens and the bad guy aliens are one in the same. It's a total setup. And it's all demonic. So, faced with a global threat, I can see nations agreeing to unify. Please read my white paper, "UFOs and the Christian Worldview," over at www.jeffersonscott.com. Jeff
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Post by Christian Soldier on Jun 17, 2007 10:30:46 GMT -5
I was thinking somethinig similiar. The world my stories take place in has the Beast already in power and Chritianity is illegal. I'm not going to go ito major details on the subject, but there it is.
The short story Im working on now, mentioned in an earler post, takes place after the War when peace has reasserted itself. This is where a demon starts taking out the only threats left: the remaining Christians. That's why my "detective" can't be Human, he'd arrest them first.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 17, 2007 21:37:31 GMT -5
kewl
Jeff
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Post by J Jack on Jun 18, 2007 7:16:26 GMT -5
What about the Left Behind series? It's like that. Christians left behind after rapture, who were not tight with God at that point in time. Really good books and movies. Not sure where to find them though. (I only skimmed the topic so I hope this is on topic lol)
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 18, 2007 12:41:05 GMT -5
Will Satan be alone in the abyss for 1,000 years? Or will his demons be cast there with him. A tantalizing clue is found in Luke 8:31, where the demons plead with Jesus not to send them into...the abyss.
So let's say Satan spends 1,000 years in the abyss with his demons. What would that be like? The word for abyss means bottomless shaft or pit. So would they be flapping their wings in a giant vertical tunnel, never able to rest, for 1,000 years? Are there little perches and clawholds around the edge?
Or maybe the abyss is more like a plane or realm parallel to ours. Could demons leak out during earthquakes or something? Maybe Abaddon (angel of the abyss) keeps watch on them to prevent escapes?
Jeff
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