What's the Purpose of the Millennium?

[Christian Soldier]

Hmm...what's it like in the abyss? Imagine being trapped in a dark room filled with sulferous demons and not being able to come to this forum. *Gasp!* Great, now I'll have nightmares...

[mongoose]

This is from. . . The DAD! Beware, and tremble.

1. Demons, like angels, are spirits, not material beings. They are not subject to gravity, and therefore they do not have wings. Neither do angels. Sorry to be an iconoclast.
2. I'm speculating, now. I think of Hell as sort of a parallel universe; then the bottomless pit would be sort of like a worm hole. But it will be closed for a thousand years, so no escapes/leakage.

Okay, this is the Mongoose again.
I've heard mixed reviews of the "Left Behind" series, but have never read them, so I realize I make this comment not on the basis of my qualifications, but rather because I'm stubborn that way.

I don't think it'll be like in the "Left Behind" books or movies, for a number of reasons. Most fundamentally, we disagree on the whole theology upon which they are based; i.e. the dual assumptions that
1. The rapture occurs pre-tribulation (I'm pretty sure there's little to no evidence to support this) and
2. That people get saved post-rapture (I'm VERY sure there's little to no evidence to support this one.)

I could try to ignore those aberrations, suspend disbelief, and enjoy the story. I've done it with other speculative fiction. I would just take the "Left Behind" series to be stories about the Christians who are on Earth during the Great Tribulation (there's plenty of evidence of this.) The problem with that, which kind of turned me off from the series, is the nature of the Tribulation events, and the organization of Christians. It's all a very conservative viewpoint, and the Christians all seem to hold to that view point in the first movie. I've heard they become militaristic in the latter books (even the title of the second book, "Tribulation Force" would indicate some sort of militarism), have their own jet, and/or other hardware, and some sort of intelligence network. According to a back cover synopsis on one of the books, people are racing to fulfill a prophecy concerning the assassination of the Anti-Christ.

I find it hard to believe that Christians during the great Tribulation would be much like that. To see what they WOULD be like, all we have to do is read Acts and the Epistles, and even Revelation. Or, for contemporary examples, check out the Christians who are CURRENTLY going through their Tribulations. Look at the Christians in Viet Nam, China, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. They have intelligence networks, yes, that allow them to remain hidden, to meet secretly, and hopefully not get caught, that enable them to disband and disappear if the authorities find their current location. Their lives are constantly threatened, and unless they effectively hide their faith they can not participate in society. Nor are they allowed to have a society of their own. Things look really bleak. They literally have to take up their cross daily and follow Him. They don't have political clout. They don't have military clout. The only reason they appear on anyone's radar at all is because people in search of Truth keep finding them and converting. But then, that won't be happening anymore during the Great Tribulation, if you read what happens after the bowls are poured out, and the scrolls are opened, and such.

No, I believe the Christians on the Earth during the Great Tribulation will look more like refugees without a refugee camp, forced to wander alone or in small groups in the Wilderness, running and hiding like the wild animals just to survive. For a time God will spare them from the plagues being poured out on the rest of man-kind, but eventually things will get so bad that even those who remained faithful in the wilderness would not be able to survive. Thus the rapture.

Unless I misunderstood what I heard about the "Left Behind" series, or someone mis-communicated it to me, I don't think it portrays this vision of Christianity during the Great Tribulation.

[Jeff Gerke]

Okay, so I'm kind of fixated on the end times right now. I've been attempting to piece together the clues of what happens to Christians in the last days. I've been restricting my thinking to Revelation, which may cause a little myopia, but that's where I am now.

As of this moment (and subject to change in the future) I think there is no rapture.

I think all Christians living at the time when Satan is cast down to earth are given a chance to deny their faith and live or be true to their faith and die a martyr's death.

I'm basing this on Revelation 13, primarily. Receive the mark of the beast (signalling your denial of Christ and worship of the beast) or die.

Therefore I believe every walk-the-walk Christian living in the end times will be murdered.

I also believe that the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are not individuals but are rather people groups. Specifically, I believe the two witnesses are Christianity and faithful Judaism. These are the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth (11:4). These religions have been God's lighthouses--and the devil's headache--for millennia. It makes sense that they would be especially prominent in the end times.

I think the account in Revelation 11 is a parallel look (from a new angle) at what happens in Revelation 13. As the signs from heaven and tribulations increase, Christians and Jews will stand up and say, "The God of the Bible is doing this." At the same time there will be a rising campaign to force everyone to worship the beast or die.

The end is the same: those who refuse to worship the beast (and who would do that except Christians and believing Jews?) are given the ability to stand up under persecution for awhile so they can proclaim the gospel to the world, but are then overcome by the beast and murdered. (I'm here assuming that the beast will be a resurrected Muhammad, ensuring that Muslims will not object to the mark of the beast at all.)

When these people die the rest of the people on earth rejoice. But three days later these martyrs come back to life and take part in the first resurrection. They are clothed in white and become the army who rides with Jesus (Revelation 14, 15, and 17).

Then in Revelation 20 they become the resurrected martyrs who rule with Christ for 1,000 years (the millennium).

In other words, it looks to me like there is no easy escape for Christians living in the last days. I think they are all murdered, making them the least fortunate of all Christians. But then they become the most blessed of all Christians because they get to be part of the rear-kicking squad who rides with Christ AND they get to rule the earth they've just helped conquer. Not a bad compensation package, actually.

Thoughts?

Jeff

[The Blue Collared Philosopher]

Jeff, i agree with you about the rapture for the time being. I can't find it anywhere, not the word rapture, but where it says that we will be saved from the Tribulation. I shall have to read more, and i think anyone who is reading these posts should do the same because we are all just posting our thoughts, not what the bible actually says.

I also must say, if you are reading Revelation, meditate for a while after you read it, and think about it. God may reveal something to you while it is quiet.

[Christian Soldier]

I find I disagree with some points. I found this handy website that has some of the verses concerning the rapture : www.bible-knowledge.com/The-Rapture.html . The main one I'm looking at is 2 Thes. 4:16-17. It talks about meeting Jesus in the air.

Also, some Angels DO have wings. See Ezekiel 1.

[The Blue Collared Philosopher]

Oh, and i should have said that i was leaning towards not believing the rapture because i knew it was somewhere, but i just haven't read it myself in a while.

Oh, and the angel comment, i agree with you Christian, some angels do have wings, depending on their job.

[Jeff Gerke]

I agree that we're not arguing; just looking at a biblical mystery from a number of perspectives.

I hope there is a rapture, personally. But as I think about it more I'm becoming convinced that a rapture is just not God's style.

You know the old cliche: God won't take you out of your hard situation; He'll take you through it.

Jesus asked if there was a way to accomplish God's will without having to endure the Cross, and He was told there wasn't. Now, Jesus was accomplishing salvation for us, which is different and may be a unique case. However, I see a lot of similarities between the plight of end times Christians and Jesus Himself.

For one, they're brought before leaders because of their devotion to the God of the Bible. For another, they're executed for that devotion. For another their bodies lie there for two days (assuming I'm right that end times martyrs are the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation 11), are later given life and appear on earth, and are then taken up to heaven. They also ride with Jesus in His conquest and then rule with Jesus in the millennium.

There appear to be a number of connections between these martyrs and the earthly experience of Jesus, leading me to wonder if they, like Him, will wish for a way around the painful execution but will not be granted it.

Of course there are a lot of IFs in that theory. It's possible, for instance, that Jesus wasn't wanting a way out of the crucifixion but that He was wishing His disciples wouldn't have to go through their trial, or whatever.

Still, if I can't play what-if in the Anomaly, where can I?

Jeff

[The Blue Collared Philosopher]

Jeff, i must say i like how you are going through several options. I believe to understand something, you must understand their opponents.

I would say that it is very hard to understand prophesy because you don't know if it is meant to be read as literal or metaphorically.

I also hope for a rapture, i don't want to be caught up in all of the war and hate that will spread during the Tribulation, but God's will be done.

[pixydust]

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst, that's what my grandma always said. I think that applies to the end times--especially the rapture.

Angels/demons (pixy's theory): Angels are made of mater, just not the same mater as us, they exist outside time, and--as we know from text--come in many shapes, sizes, and forms. Angelos derives from the Hebrew term mal'akh, which literally means "the shadow side of God." These beings were created before earth and I have the feeling (not convicted of this yet) that they cannot die as we can--this is why they are not in need of salvation as we are--and cannot be saved or "forgiven" as we can. Once a demon, always a demon. They are beings with a choice and were created by God for His glory.

The Millennium:

It's so strange, because the very first book I endeavored to write was about what happens after the 1,000 years. I had just finished a years study of Rev. and the question I posed was:

[glow=red,2,300]What was it that made the 1,000 years end? [/glow]

It wasn't arbitrary. Man is flesh, as Jeff said. We mess up--even without the help of Satan and his minions.

So my back-story: By the end of the Tribulation and God's retribution, Man's structure is wiped out. No technology left, no order of any kind. Man exists with God in a simple life once more for a thousand years. But by the end of that thousand years new generations have emerged. Man begins to forget what God has done--the Blood sacrifice. A lie is born through a man and then it leads to murder--the first blood spilled since the cleansing of the earth. Satan is released again upon the soil and paradise turns to chaos. This isn't like before. Earth can't last as it did for so many years with sin. It begins to die once more. The demons are like starving men, having been trapped for so long in the abyss. They scatter and create torment, loss, and death like nothing ever seen before.

Time passes, three generations. Enter my MC. She's born with a gift, as many are in this third generation. She can see demons and angels (this is the army of the future--for the last battle).

It's a world that's gone desolate. Snow-topped mountains, desert lowlands. Very little survives the harshness of this world. The MC also has the gift of life in her fingertips. And the day she discovers this is the day her adventure begins.

[pixydust]

This was going to be a whole series. I actually had one book that was during the tribulation--one showing the end of the 1,000 yrs and then the one that takes place three generations after (posted above) depicting the "Last Battle" at the gates of that city--forget the name off the top of my head. All the MCs were from the same family lines--and it traced family through the steps of this strange time.

[The Blue Collared Philosopher]

Pixydust, what if everyone could see the demons and angels? That would be something, what if humans fought with the demons, and mean literally, sword to sword, face to face. No more dimesions and invisible worlds. What if we saw them with our physical eyes?

Now that, in my opinion would be quite an adventure. That is how i always imagined the last days. Face to face with our enemies, physically fighting for freedom in Christ.

[Jeff Gerke]

Awesome ideas. And the great thing is that there's room for all of them!

Cool story idea, pixy.

Jeff

[Christian Soldier]

Concerning angels and demons, I've always suspected that they can affect the physical realm without actually touching it. I agree with the theory that angels don't need salvation like we do, but I disagree with once a demon always a demon. I think that part of why the end times aren't here yet is because God is giving the demons a chance. Obviously, He's also giving us a chance as well to straighten up and fly right.

My reasoning behind this is that in the Old Testament, there are several places where it speaks of spirits, or even Satan, coming forth to speak with God. I don't think He would allow them in His presence if they didn't have a chance at returning.

[The Blue Collared Philosopher]

CS, what makes you think that the demons can come back to God? Wouldn't that mean that there would have to be an Angel/God just like Jesus was a human/God? Demons in a sense have sinned, so they need a savior. But then they can be in God's presence since they are spirits, so you believe that spirits can be redeem? Wouldn't that mean that then our souls or spirits once we are dead could be redeem?

And your reasoning is some what odd to me, i mean, God is a-well, he is God, but our understanding of him is that he is kind of like a Spirit, so why can't Spirits(angels) be in a Spirit's(God) presence and be perfectally normal? Why couldn't Satan be in God's presence? He doesn't want salvation, he wants domion, and i believe that any demon doesn't want salvation.

Just think about it, have you ever met a really arrogant person? If you told them something was going to hurt and they wanted to try it, they would still do it. I believe demons are something like that, i think they have been warned, but i believe that they trully think they can win.

[The Blue Collared Philosopher]

Oh, and i forgot to say, CS, while i am think about arrogance. If you were put in demon's shoes, why wouldn't you believe you could win? I mean you have half the world decieved by many lies, Christians are too busy argueing on who is right about tradition and ect. I mean, just think about the world's condition and ask yourself if you were a demon why you wouldn't win?