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Post by pixydust on Jun 21, 2007 10:34:27 GMT -5
The funny thing is, demons obey God. Evil men don't. Evil men believe they are god. Demons know who's da boss--and it ain't Tony Danza.  Demons were once in the presance of God--pure and lovely--they went from that to chosing death. Men live in darkness until the moment they meet God--then they chose. That's how I see the difference, but as we all know, we see through a glass darkly. |
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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on Jun 21, 2007 11:26:41 GMT -5
Do demons know who is the boss? I mean really, if Satan is the King of lies why doesn't he tell his own followers lies to convince them of who is the boss? If we were told lies our whole life what would we believe in? Who would we follow? I would think we would follow the one who promises power. I would, we all want power in some form or another, we all desire to be in control and think demons are somewhat the same.
I figured i'd just add this, when i ask questions i don't want you to think i am trying to argue i am just trying you to make you think.
Oh, why would demons obey God? If they want to win the great war of life they are against God. Who would obey their enemy?
I read a book by Wayne Thomas Batson the author of The Door Within trilogy and like how he portayed Satan. He thought that he had won in the end. But the King(God) returned and wiped evil out.
I have a lot of questions for God when i get to heaven.
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Post by mongoose on Jun 21, 2007 15:48:08 GMT -5
It's not a matter of logicing out who would be da boss of da demons. All you have to do is look at da book. Jesus done told em, and they did whater he said. That's that.
And though someone asserted that angels have wings, no one showed any references to said wings, that I recall. Why would a spirit have wings? It has NO corporeal substance, thus, no need to lift or move said substance through the air by means of wings, legs, or any other mechanism. that is logic, but I haven't read in the text of angels having wings, either.
As for the rapture, no, the word isn't in the text, but the event is. Matthew 23 or 24, I believe, is the other reference besides the one already posted in Thessalonians. It's not mentioned directly in Revelation, but the sudden lack of Christians is, while there's no mention of a slaughter of all the Christians (unless you take the two prophets to include all Christians and all Jews. I see no reason to make such an assumption.) So, if you combine Revelation 13 and 14 with Matthew 23 and 24, and whatever the reference is in Thessalonians, you get a sudden dissapearance of all Christians. Oh, and there's another prophecy that Jesus speaks that we use to refer to the rapture, other than those ones. I'm talking about the one where he says that two people will be lying in bed, and one will be taken and the other left, or two people walking down the road, and one will be taken and the other left, etc. We assume this is the same as when the trumpet sounds and the angels gather the elect from the four corners of the Earth, and the same as when the dead in Christ rise first, and then the rest of us join them in the air.
But it's all really accademic, seeing as how we have no control over it, and even if I could know what would happen in the future, it wouldn't change what I'm doing now one whit. Rapture or slaughter or half and half, things are going to get worse before they get better, we'll continue to make disciples of all nations, and we'll continue to occupy until he comes.
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Post by pixydust on Jun 21, 2007 17:13:17 GMT -5
But see, angels aren't spirits. They're made of matter, just not the same mater as us--or maybe they are and they have the knowledge of how to bend it to their will enough to move across dementions. And if you read Daniel or Isaiah or Revelation you'll find references of wings (I'll look those up and get back to you)--I believe the Cherubim are mentioned as having six in one scripture. But I don't believe they all have wings. There are several named "beings" in the Bible, not all of them are the same. They all were created to show a different form of God's glory. I'm not a big rapture fan. I've never known God to let man off the hook so easily. We are meant to be tried--especailly at the end. He will seperate the wheat from the chaff. We will be tested to the furthest degree in the end. If we are ready for this and don't become lax, that is our best way of being ready. "He will come like a theif in the night" but will that mean he'll take us before we're tested? The point is we don't know. We never will--until that apointed time comes. That's the fun of descusions like this. We can "speculate" and play around with it. Left Behind is one interpretation. Someday, there may be another born of this discusion. (I love throwing this stuff back and forth) They're talking about this at Spec Faith right now: specfaith.ritersbloc.com/2007/06/20/kingdomcomepart1.aspxSome of you may be interested in reading what they say. And commenting there on this too. |
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Post by Christian Soldier on Jun 21, 2007 17:32:44 GMT -5
On Angels and wings, I say again: Ezekiel chapter 1. He describes the Seraphim(I think) as having four or more wings. They don't need wings, but why not add them? If you were making angels, would you include wings? I would. Just because I could.
The bit about the rapture is academic regardless. We cannot know when it will be. When/if it comes, it will be a surprise. Until then, it can be a comfort: I don't have to be here when it all goes really bad.
Admittedly, I have no Biblical basis for my belief that demons can return to God, but keep in mind that they do not have complete and total free will. At least, I don't think so. Not all of them anyway. I get THAT from the fact that they have to flee their host whenever Jesus tells them to. Why would they do that? Unless they have to. I think they have a certain amount of free will, but it's within a set of boundaries(there's that word again). Like I said though, it's no Biblical.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 21, 2007 20:56:53 GMT -5
You guys have to read Demon: A Memoir, a new novel out by Christian novelist Tosca Lee. She tells the entire history of the Fall and beyond--through the eyes of a demon. Brilliant and provocative writing. See the interview with Tosca here ( www.wherethemapends.com/Interviews/Tosca_Lee.htm) and the Web page here ( demonamemoir.com/). Jeff |
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Post by mongoose on Jun 21, 2007 23:23:14 GMT -5
Where do you get the idea that angels are matter, not spirits? Or that the demons are fallen cherubim (six wings?) or Seraphim (4 wings?) If Cherubim, Seraphim, and angels are seperate creations, and the demons are fallen angels, then I see no reason to conclude that demons are anything like Cherubim or Seraphim. Or living creatures, for that matter. There's several species, if you will, worshiping God in Revelation, and Angels are just one of them, not to be confused with the things surrounded by eyes, or the things with the six wings, or any of the other things there.
For a discussion like this to be useful we have to know which terms refer to which subjects. I realize that I haven't laid out a definition of each of these terms, with references, but that's because I try not to engage in accademic debates beyond pointing out where people could improve their presentations of their ideas.
To clarify one point, though, on the rapture, it's not a matter of God letting us off the hook easy, or taking us out before things get really bad, if you accept the belief that the rapture will occure in the middle of the Tribulation, when huge chunks of humanity are being kilt. The fact that I agree that God's not going to let people off easy is a major reason I don't accept the belief in a pre-tribulation rapture. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's clear that, at some point, God's going to take believers out of the world. It's also clear that they aren't there when the world starts to cave in on itself. It's also clear that they do return with Christ, at some point. That's really enough for me.
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Post by pixydust on Jun 22, 2007 16:40:11 GMT -5
That was a great interview Jeff. She sounds like a very amazing woman. I've been wanting to pick up that book. Thanks for the reminder.
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Post by fluke on Oct 30, 2007 15:47:06 GMT -5
It is a good idea. This topic was nagging my mind, trying to remember the title I read with just this premise. www.amazon.com/Fourth-Millennium-Sequel-Paul-Meier/dp/0785281495It is exactly as Jeff describes. People unused to deceit are taken in quickly. There is also the human arrogance factor in some characters. One guy is written to be hated. The first words out of his mouth are "I'm working on my fourth doctorate." He never breaks character. Frank Luke |
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Oct 31, 2007 7:31:29 GMT -5
Cool, Frank. Thank you. And welcome to The Anomaly.
Jeff
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Post by kouter on Oct 31, 2007 17:41:06 GMT -5
Might be a bit off track at this point, but I wanted to reflect on the original question: Whats the purpose of the Millennium?
FRom my reading of the scripture it appears the purpose of locking Satan away for that period may be to prepare for the Judgment of Satan and the world.
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Setting up the courtroom perhaps? Or perhaps this is the point at which Satan and his angels will be judged by the Christ and Christians as Paul hinted at in Corinthians?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
After Satan's judgment he is released for his punishment but makes one last desperate effort to defy God.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
After this comes the Judgment of the whole world by God himself.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This Judgment is perhaps the Judgment of all those outside of Christ as the elect will have already have risen with Christ. Thinking about this like that... About being judged by God without Christ... its a sobering and saddening thought...
Brethren, we must do our utmost to save souls from that terrible end.
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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on Oct 31, 2007 20:45:42 GMT -5
Yes, that is a saddening thought. Without Christ we are...nothing. It would be terrible to be judged without Christ at my side. And what is the purpose of the Millenium? I really have no idea, but i have been studing the book of Joshua with a couple of my friends and there has been a constant theme with God.
God would send Joshua to destroy a city or kingdom, but God would...delay the destruction of the people, giving them time to repent. Like in Jericho, the people of Jericho had heard about the Israelites and all that God had done, from the parting of the Red Sea to the plagues in Egypt. So they knew God could destroy them, and he gave the people of Jericho 40 years to repent while the Israelites were being punished. Then God gave them seven days to repent while the Israelites marched around Jericho. And only one household repented, Rahab the prostitute and her family. (oh, a cool little fact, did you know that Rahab was the mother of...hm, can't remember which one, but she was one of the great grandmothers of King David, so Jesus was a desendent of Rahab and her husband!)
Now, i don't know even know if angels can repent, but perhaps God is giving Satan a chance to repent after being bound in chains for a thousand years.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Nov 2, 2007 7:36:01 GMT -5
Interesting idea, gredruin (and you, too, kouter).
As far as I know there's no solid biblical evidence to support this, but I've always believed that angels and demons had their chance to exercise their free will sometime around the time of the Fall. But after that, after they made their decision, their choices were sealed and their free will removed forever. If that's true, there's no sense appealing to them to turn--for good or ill--because they've made their choice.
Still, yours is a cool idea, too, and as I said, there's little biblical support for my view, so yours has just as much chance of being true.
Good thoughts. If you're interested in this topic, go back to the original posts in this thread.
Jeff
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Post by kouter on Nov 2, 2007 14:36:26 GMT -5
Hmm Gredruin's idea of a chance for repentence got me thinking of something else. Maybe it could be God's last gift of absolute mercy to the people left on the earth? i.e. give man the chance to come to the aknowledgement of God without the influence of satan.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Nov 4, 2007 8:57:19 GMT -5
Yes, kouter, that sounds very plausible. Kind of a second Eden, in that sense.
Jeff
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