Female messiah?

[Divides the Waters]

Not really sure if this is the right forum, since I am technically interested in this subject for another genre. But I figured that people here might be willing to think in these terms, and come up with something applicable.

What might a female messiah be like? (This isn't exactly asking what if Jesus had been a woman, but along those lines.) Has anyone read any good stories or speculation about the subject?

[Jeff Gerke]

If God had chosen to send His Messiah to another culture and in another time than to Israel during the Roman Empire, He might've needed to send a female. Like if He'd sent His Messiah to one of the matriarchal cultures of South America, for instance.

It's problematic, though, because Israel has always been His chosen people. That's always been a patriarchal society, which might REQUIRE a male Messiah to resonate with the people. We also think of Christ as male, with some people finding female attributes in the Holy Spirit.

I think if you wanted to use a female Messiah you'd have to do it on an alternate Earth. On this Earth, God's direction seems to have been determined early on (perhaps before Creation), a direction that seems to require a male Messiah.

Jeff

[Divides the Waters]

Well, in this case, I'm not setting it on Earth at all, but it sounds as though your thoughts are running along the same track.

[rwley]

If you have a different world that's primarily matriarchal, would your soldiers/warriors be some time of Amazon-like army? You wouldn't have to go so far as having them enslave the men, but if women were dominant as men have been throughout our history, the Amazon-type of female might be valid. Women Crusaders? And since it's not taking place on Earth, you can of course create whatever history you want. The Amazons would have definitely needed a female Messiah.

[Divides the Waters]

This is kind of an odd one; it's a setting that involves multiple worlds. The choice to make this Messiah female was almost an arbitrary one; it seemed that it hadn't really been done as much in spec fic as a male version. Or if it had, it was usually from a sort of neo-pagan goddess-worshipping stance. So it wasn't so much that one world was matriarchal and another was patriarchal as it was that the messiah had to be one gender or another, and that one seemed "the road less traveled." Plus, the anti-christ counterpart is a male, and I thought it would be an interesting face-off.

[pixydust]

I really like this idea. Really intriguing. There are all kinds of ways to spin this one.

[strangewind]

The other thing to not lose sight of is that Christ, in both pre-incarnation appearances (Melchizidek, for example) and post, always appears as man. He is fully human and therefore fully male. For whatever reason, maleness is a quality of Christ, and femaleness is a quality of the church.

The marriage of Christ to church becomes problematic when roles are reversed if there is no backstory, no motive for reversing those roles. A wife is not the same thing as a husband: a messiah who is wife to the bridegroom church runs the risk of becoming one of two things: either an identical relationship as the existing Christ-Male, Church-Female one (in which case, it will only confound the reader to switch the roles arbitrarily - and gain the author nothing) or else one that forces the Messiah to appear as a mother-goddess, queen of heaven (Ishtar) sort of figure, and the church as a hamstrung agent of the Messiah.

So, I think that although your motive for creating a female messiah figure may stem from you wanting do "something different," I as your reader am going to demand a very crafty plot that requires an eternal, female Christ.

Which I think is a big, interesting challenge!

[Divides the Waters]

Strangewind,

I probably run the risk of miscommunication by not telling the story wholly. This is not a case of alternate history so much as it is a whole slew of worlds with their own history. It's more akin to making Christ a lion in the Chronicles of Narnia than it is to making Christ a woman in a story set on an alternate Earth. In my speculative phase here, I see it (in my story) as almost more of an incarnation of the Holy Spirit, which is feminine in Hebrew. Showing full aspects of God, but different facets, as it were. This is a set of cultures to whom Earth has become a myth, and because of when it was begun, has heard nothing of Christ. (In this mythos, pre-Flood people populated other worlds, and were cut off from the "motherland," as it were, when the Flood destroyed the Earth. So they split off and developed their own cultures and histories, completely removed from the source.) It's an apocalyptic fable or fairy tale, not an attempt to be completely theologically sound.

Pixydust,

Thank you, and I would very much welcome thoughts!

[pixydust]

I see it (in my story) as almost more of an incarnation of the Holy Spirit, which is feminine in Hebrew. Showing full aspects of God, but different facets, as it were. This is a set of cultures to whom Earth has become a myth, and because of when it was begun, has heard nothing of Christ. (In this mythos, pre-Flood people populated other worlds, and were cut off from the "motherland," as it were, when the Flood destroyed the Earth. So they split off and developed their own cultures and histories, completely removed from the source.) It's an apocalyptic fable or fairy tale, not an attempt to be completely theologically sound.

Oh, wow! That's extremely cool idea flow there.

[strangewind]

Ohhhhhhh. Yeah, I was in alternate history mode.

eep.

Never mind!

[Divides the Waters]

Not your fault; I posted in the alternate history forum. I just thought that maybe people thinking in that vein might be able to help me coalesce some of my ideas into something useful. Things one might expect, things one might be surprised at, etc. But maybe I should move the discussion to the fantasy forum, since that is more the appropriate setting.

[Divides the Waters]

Do you think that people would be offended if a Christ figure did not come from a virgin birth?

[strangewind]

Yes. But that's okay.

The important thing is that if you are going to change the birth story, just have a good (or at least plausible) story for why it runs counter to reader expectations. What is God trying to say through you that the "messiah" needs to be conceived conventionally (or alternatively, not born at all!)

God has great reasons for sparking the life of our Savior from the Holy Spirit in Mary, some we can grasp, and some we cannot. But any author should have solid motive for any choice. So the best question to answer isn't if it is okay to have a non-born or non-virgin born messiah, but what need does your society have for a non-born or non-virgin born messiah? What demands do they make on her? What are their expectations? What provides them the greatest reason for accepting her? For rejecting her?

[Divides the Waters]

LOL Well, ask a direct question.....

My thinking, again, was not so much a societal requirement as it was a desire to show that God can work even through the lowliest or most unexpected circumstances. Can God still bring His love and revelation to people across the worlds through a bastard, half-human girl? I'm going to have to do some serious study on the realities of messiah vs. the expectations, as well as the various messiah "myths" throughout the ages.

My understanding for the reason for the virgin birth was to have a "last Adam," that is, a perfect creation untainted by the curse brought on by sin--in other words, God was making a point about what He originally intended, and what would originally be. But I've always suspected that Jesus would not have been radically different had He been conceived the traditional way. That, alone, obviously falls into the realm of speculation. But I've always found it fascinating that He chose that route at all; He could just as easily have created a man whole cloth, but He chose to have a virgin conceive, bear, and raise a child.

You've given me some tremendous food for thought!

[strangewind]

One of the challenges I would face if I were to attempt to write in this vein is the universal, once-for-all sacrifice that Jesus Christ made.

Lewis, in Out of the Silent Planet, examines Martian cultures who recognize the sacrifice of Christ on earth as their savior, too. In Perelandra, he addresses, in dramatic fashion, a Venusian creation story that, by the grace of Christ's work on earth, begins to develop without a "Fall."

No matter how separated this culture you are creating is, how might you explain your "creation's" need for a savior, when Christ already has redeemed it?

I'm asking this out of curiosity more than anything.

I think it is important to not overlook some details of history. God chose a virgin birth in particular. There is something about, not just prophecy, not just the miraculous, but God's character itself that demands, specifically a virgin birth. I don't know, for certain, what it is about His character that demands that, but I do know that a meditation on that character would be very useful as you develop your "reflecting" worldview for this fictional setting.

God reveals his character in many ways. He gave us the sabbath not because rest is a healthy requirement, but, at least in part, because rest is a part of his character. God calls us to be humble in spirit not only because it is healthy for us, but because He is humble in spirit. God is an example-setter.

The heart of the question for me is "What will your Christ story reflect about the character of God?"