Female messiah?

[Divides the Waters]

Going to bump this thread, as it seems that Messiah figures have come back into the spotlight here, as it were, and I would welcome more thoughts (particularly as I am coming close to writing this section in my story, and really don't want to mishandle it).

[seraphim]

As outlined you've got some difficult problems to resolve in order to maintain a faithful even if fictional Christology in trying to develop a "female messiah" type.

1. You have to questions relating to the thelogical meaning/implication of maleness. Did God become incarnate as a male person because that was culturally relevant at the time or because there is something more with regard to maleness than just one half of the reproductive program?

2. This leads to the next issue, namely that God gave the first prophecy of the coming Messiah in the garden prior to the expulsion. The prophecy indicated the seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's head was a "he". This is especially troublesome for your story since you indicate the humans of your world are a branch of humanity seperated by the flood...hence they would still be heirs to the original promise of a "male" deliverer...made way back before there were any cultures to be relevant about.

3. With respect to the idea of an incarnation of the Holy Spirit based upon the term being cast in the feminine in semetic languages...that is a theological and ecclesiological worm wrestle in a handly spray can. The first problem of which is that the worship of the Holy Trinity was revealed at the Baptism of Christ. Then the Comforter Himself did not come to abide prior to Pentecost (and he did not incarnate Himself) but entempled in the members of the Church making them collectively Christ's Body, transforming them into the image and likeness of Christ.

4. You indicated you were considering your female messiah more in terms of a deliverer from a great evil than as a redeemer in her own right. If that is the case then why not hew closer biblical Judge-Prophetess models, like Deborah. Why not think/create more in terms of a "voice crying in the wilderness" or "in the streets" (wisdom) ...more forerunner/preparer of the way than messiah.

Just to try that concept on for size lets look at your premises:

1. A people/world seperated "out there" by the flood which prominant civilizations have culturally developed along strongly matriarchal lines.

2. A great evil threatens this world and a deliverer who is/has some special depth of relationship with the Holy Spirit has been raised up.

This suggests to me some avenues of development that don't require a literal female messiah, but can support a strong female deliverer.

For example what if you postulate the existance of temple/shrine to God...one now almost forgotten as new gods or watered down versions of the old one have become popular, and this shine is served by a holy sisterhood, a lady's version of school of the prophets/monastery, led/guided by the "overshadowed" among them...those with a deep persistant gift. They know someone like them...only much greater is comming and she will do a great work turning the hearts of the people back, and herself resisting face to face the evil that is rising.

You might also consider that one of her own challenges might be if "in the whorlwhind" some apostle, or disciples of the apostles find their way into this world...and are not being taken that seriously, hardly noticed by the rich and powerful...because they are men...but she can see what and who they are and she must be the bridge that enables her culture to accept them and their message...for that is what will be needed by the people to steel themselves against and triumph over the evil that now threatens to ride roughshod over the world. You could even keep these new arrivals and their specific work at a distance...something just making an appearance in a distant land but which is moving her way. That way all the action centers mainly on her deeds...and the coming good news is the background and ticking clock against which she works.

Just an idea based on the core premisis you indicated take it or leave it for whatever it is worth.

[Divides the Waters]

Wow, Seraphim ... you put some real thought into this. Thank you!

The notion of setting this in a kind of fictional spin-off of this world was more or less a "how did humans get to all these different planets" explanation. It allowed me to give the story a bit of credence (in my mind) while freeing me from limitations Earth itself would impose. It also forced me to think in terms of what kind of technology would have been developed in worlds without an industrial revolution or a global Flood.

The notion of a Deborah-like figure is interesting, but there's already one in the first book, and I've been pointing towards a stronger figure to come. I'm leaning on a sort of spiritual Joan of Arc type (it really annoyed me to find out that Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman had done something similar in their Dragonlance: War of the Souls trilogy, and now I have to go a slightly different route to keep from copying their approach).

It's not so much that the societies are matriarchal as they are not strictly patriarchal; the Temple is a kind of meeting ground between the spiritual and the material, where the angelic beings converse more regularly with humans, etc. Its extensions are not dissimilar to our own churches, except that they do not have these interactions...they're more of the actively human side of the equation, worship without visible/audible direction. I liked the idea of playing with a large organized religion that had actual encounters with its "divine" beings, much as I imagine the pre-Flood/pre-Curse world was originally meant to be. I very much like the ideas you have put forth, but I'm afraid that if I were to try to do some sort of sisterhood, it might come off looking like the Bene Gesserit of Dune. As it is, it's probably more akin to the Jedi order; seemingly sexless in the sense that there is no preference for male or female in the appointment of the Wardens of the Gates, though there will be other positions that no doubt might be better suited for men or women specifically.

I have throughout my story developed the themes of prophets and prophecy, including one character who is central to the novels and runs the gamut from Jonah to Enoch to John the Baptist in his growth. I'm going to have to punch it up a bit now, because most of the first novel is (spoilers here) a case of mistaken identity. Now I have to shift the focus and show that this person has been anticipated, and by many others besides those dealt with in the first book. Whew!

I'm not really trying to be theologically correct with the "incarnation of the Holy Spirit" notion...it's more of an analogy than anything else. I want there to be no mistake that this is a fictional universe, and the Creator goes by a different name, and the only references to Earth are oblique, as more or less a legend (the doors to the first world were closed at the Flood). There is enough female imagery of the Holy Spirit that I'm not really concerned about the masculine aspect of God being diminished or maligned; I'm merely trying to shift the focus. (Remember the spirit hovering above the face of the waters in Genesis? The analogy is of a mother bird spreading her wings over her incubating egg. There's also sophia in Proverbs, a feminine personification of Wisdom.) Of course, one could point out (quite accurately) that the real issue is going to be focusing on traits that are female without being stereotypical.

I love your ideas, and will be considering them as I delve into the story headlong. It's great to have feedback on this!

[seraphim]

Ah... you are thinking Joan of Arcish...why not look figures like Judith from the Deuterocanonicals. Her wiley and deadly exploits against the Assyrian general Holofernes inspired poetry for centuries. Now the book of Judith is not accepted as OT scripture by most Protestants, but it is by all Catholics, Orthodox, Copts and a goodly number of traditionalist Anglicans (I think). Then there is the stealthy example of Jael/Yael in Judges.

What if such women in some distant past on another world in another time inspired a sisterhood...some openly organized, some covert, but all deadly in time of need. You know that does sound a little Bene Gesserit...but what of it? What do you get if you cross pollenate something like the Hospitalers/Templers with the B.G.? Why balk? It might even be interesting if you have a mix of the "pragmatic" faith of some sister-warriors with a harder to pin down "holy fool" with her own "covert" Spirit driven agenda...sort of blowing whither soever she listeth.

As a reference work for pulling "'God" ideas out of other cultures you might consider reading "Eternity in Their Hearts"....the Inca story has some great potential. It you are looking for models of high functioning matriarchal societies you might consider what is known of the Mound Building cultures, specifically the Natchez, the last of the mound builders. They had a priest-king (Great Sun), but lineage and societal power flowed largely on the matriarchal side...all were required to marry below their cast/social rank but not above...unless they were the lowest class...they could marry at or above their social class. The upper class always had to marry from among the lowest...which meant such spouses were little more than perpetual indentured servants. Children took the caste rank of the mother. The "anointed" son the tribe's matriarch was the priest-king. Moreover their religion had many parallels with the Christian faith. The following is their creation story: "The story related how the Infinite Spirit fashioned the first man from clay, breathed life into him, and likewise created small spirits with limited power, to serve as the Infinite Spirit's helpers. There was also an evil spirit in the world, but the Infinite Spirit had bound it to prevent it from doing harm. However, the evil spirit also had his little army of small spirit-helpers, and these managed to cause trouble from time to time. People eventually went astray, so the Infinite Spirit sent a man and woman from the sun to set people back on the right path.

The sun-people brought with them a code of conduct. The most important rules were:

Kill only in self-defense
Do not commit adultery
Do not be greedy
Share everything joyfully"

Natchez links (just in case you are interested):http://www.backyardnature.net/loess/ind_natz.htm
www.uark.edu/depts/contact/natchez.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natchez_people

Just a couple of turnips for the story pot.

[Divides the Waters]

I can't believe it's been so long since I visited this thread, but a lot has been going on in my life.

I'm not particularly concerned with whether a story is "canonical" or not if I consider it as inspiration for my novel. More that it doesn't conflict with general principles of godly attributes that I would like to portray (and boy, wouldn't I love to see what a world with a female Messiah looked like!).

[Kristen]

I've been reluctant to chime in on this thread, tho I find it interesting. In my novel, which is a fantasy set in a totally made-up world not connected to Earth, I have a trinitarian theology in which two-thirds of the trinity are female.

The creator and redeemer are both female, and the counselor is male. The conflict in the story comes primarily from the fact that followers of this religion are egalitarian, while neighboring lands with a different religion are patriarchal.

In the world-building, I wanted to set up that conflict, so the religion sort of came about by thinking backward -- "what sort of religion would lead to a truly egalitarian culture?" I figure if your redeemer were female, and preached equality, you'd have trouble oppressing females.

At the time, it didn't occur to me that this might be a controversial storytelling decision. Like you, Divides, I saw it as being like Narnia. In Narnia, the redeemer is a lion, in my world, the redeemer is a woman, in someone else's world, the redeemer could be an androgynous sentient gas cloud. It seems to me the important thing is whether it works in the context of the story world.

[Divides the Waters]

I'm glad you chimed in. I think it's fascinating to see how the concepts of God are dealt with in Fantasy (anti-Christian polemics notwithstanding). There is a seven-faceted God concept in George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire (NOT a CBA title, I might add) that I thought was quite interesting. And even the theologically shallow Joan of Arcadia had an interesting notion of God in different guises. Since the language of scripture is quite even-handed when it comes to gender-related imagery, I am not as concerned with the propriety of attempting a female messiah as I am about communicated what, exactly, it is to be "annointed." Reading through a chronological Bible at the moment to see if I can get a sense of how God communicated His intent through the ages, and the fulfillment of His will in Jesus and the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Definitely interested in reading more about your story.

[Kristen]

Thanks, Divides. A new and (I hope) improved proposal is here: newauthors.wordpress.com/kristen%C2%A0stieffel/

But it doesn't talk a lot about the religion. The female-ness of the redeemer doesn't really figure in the story because ... well, like I said, I didn't think it was that big a deal. But it has made some people question whether CBA-type readers will approve.

[acortadino]

Hi. I['m wondering about the female Messiah...To what end? While changing the gender changes everything (dah! ha!), then what? So, now we've got a female Messiah. Does she undo what Eve did? Does she do away with menses and childbirth pain?

Bottom line, what benefit would there be to changing the gender of the Messiah?

I think it's an interesting premise but I'm wondering if the substance is there. I'd be intrigued to know more!

[Kristen]

Hi, acortadino -- I guess I didn't explain well enough before...Let me try again.

You ask "to what end?"

The end I had in mind was a faith that would by its very nature impel believers to treat one another equally. You'd think Christianity would do that, because we have the apostle Paul telling us there's no male and female, all are one...Didn't work out that way.

My goal was to oppose a polytheistic, patriarcal religion with a monotheistic, egalitarian one. And it seemed to me the best way to get to that was to have a trinitarian faith that encompassed both genders, with a male counselor and female redeemer and creator. That then puts my heroine (a clergywoman) in conflict with her antagonists in every possible way.

Since we are forever being told that conflict is the key to compelling stories, I thought that would make for a good story.

[Kristen]

And no, having a female redeemer doesn't change any of the things you mention. Why would it? Jesus didn't remove any parts of the curse that fall on males -- painful toil and all that. The purpose of the redeemer is the same whether he's a man or a lion, so why should it be different if she's a woman?

[rjj7]

I think you need to be very careful with the argument that changing the messiah's gender is no different than changing him to a Lion. There was a very strong reason for changing the messiah to a Lion in Narnia; the population of Narnia was talking animals, and Lewis wanted to preserve the idea that the messiah was 'one of us', so to speak. In our world, a world of men, Jesus is a man; in Narnia, a world of talking animals, he is a talking animal.

The reason I say this doesn't apply in your world is that there doesn't appear to be any change in your work with regard to the nature of the world. People are still people, and it doesn't seem to me that you are trying to change the attributes of men or women. Thus the parallel between your world and Narnia breaks down. That doesn't invalidate your idea in the slightest; it merely, in my mind, invalidates that particular argument for it.

[Kristen]

I see my storyworld as a world of *people* -- so as long as their reedemer is a person, gender is secondary, and a female could theoretically do the work of redemption as well as a male, since the power of redemption comes from the redeemer's divine aspect, not from the human aspect. And we know divinity encompasses -- more accurately, it trancends -- gender, because the creator says "Let us create them in our image" (Gen. 1:26, NIV), "male and female" (v.27).

[Kristen]

And let's be honest -- writing about a female messiah is just a storytelling decision, and as such it's primary purpose is to set up a situation that's different from what we're used to so we can see how people react to it.

As a writer, my primary question is -- would knowing the protagonists worship a female messiah prevent you from reading the book? And if so, why?

[Kessie]

God was a woman in the Shack. A ton of people read it anyway. :-p