Disillusioned with Evangelicalism

[Bainespal]

I normally do not like discussing theology, because it may be the most serious subject out there. However, I've had some theological problems for a long time that I've rarely ever talked about, and I would appreciate it if someone could help work through some of them.

I don't blame the church for my distress and disillusionment. It's too easy to blame the church for everything; in fact, blaming the church has become a cliche. I think I'm even more disillusioned with the anti-establishment-Christianity form of Evangelicalism than with formal religion. The church has done me no wrong, and I deeply love my local church.

So, here's two of my big theological problems:

• Salvation
  Over the years, I have become less and less comfortable with referring to being "saved." This is due to my experience; I was raised in an Evangelical family; I was "saved" when I was six. Only, I never really believed that I was saved when I said that prayer when I was six. Even when I was about 10, I would pick up tracts at my church and bring them home to say the prayers at the end of the tracts, fearing that I might not have said the right prayer. I kept thinking that if I just said prayed to receive Christ one more time, then I could put it to rest once-and-for all that I was really saved.
  
  But none of those prayers "worked" for me; there was no burst of light, or of assurance. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God -- is God incarnate -- that He sacrificed His own life and rose from the dead. And I don't see that any particular commitment or affirmation that I can utter or confess will ever make the Atonement more real or applicable to me.
  
  I know longer fear hell like I used to, partly because I've come to see that the desire to escape hell is actually selfish. I deserve hell, but Jesus paid it. All I can do is enact my faith in the present, and if the perfectly Just Judge sends me to hell, then that is right and good.
  
  
• The Bible
  I believe that the Bible is completely accurate and authoritative for Christians. I'm not so sure about the Bible being the Word of God, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. I can't reconcile the Bible and Christ having the same title without being one in essence. If the Bible really is the Word of God, I think it would have to be co-equal with God in some way. And that leads to idolatry, because ultimately the Bible is not God; it is an inanimate object.
  
  
• Formal Religion
  One of the things that Evangelicals I have known in my life disagree with the most is the status of non-Evangelical orthodox Christians, i.e., the Catholics (and other groups). There is no question in my mind that Evangelicalism is not inherently better or worse than formal Orthodoxy. There must certainly Catholics who are trying to earn their own salvation by their own merit through the sacraments. There are also Evangelicals who think they're going to heaven because they said the prayer. I believe there are also many Catholics whose perform the sacraments as expressions of deep faith in the Savior and His mercy, even though they've never been "saved." And there are Evangelicals for whom the prayer really was an awakening of true faith.
  
  I've been influenced tremendously by traditionally religious Christians like Lewis and Tolkien. I've just read Tolkien's essay "On Fairy Stories," and I was deeply impressed by the end in which he presents the Gospel as the intersection of the mythical truth of fairy tales with our real, historical existence. And Lewis has perhaps given me more reason to believe and more to hold on to than any other writer. These and other not-so-Evangelical writers have satisfied my agonized existential longing much better than the Evangelical principles I've grown up with. (Lewis is sometimes called "Evangelical," but he doesn't sound Evangelical in the sense of referring to being "saved.")
  
  I think that if Christ is the Truth, He will satisfy our existential longings and heal our existential misery. I think it is impossible to love Truth more than God, because God is the Truth. I feel that Evangelicalism has not given me enough permission to earnestly seek truth, because it's too confident that all the truth we need can be summed up in Bible verses.
  

Well, I'm sorry to stick that on you guys. I would hate to cause division. If this makes anybody here miserable, then at least you can know that it will have made me miserable too. I just wanted to let it out. Thank you.

[Kessie]

I'm hardly theologically educated, but I have wrestled with some of these same issues.

On salvation: I did the exact same thing. I prayed to accept Jesus over and over as I was growing up, because I was afraid I'd die suddenly and go to hell.

What finally changed it was when I enrolled in an in-depth Bible study. I learned how to pray and ask God a specific question, and pinpoint his answer when it came in my Bible reading. (God's reply to me would be all outlined in neon lights so I had to notice it. I have so much stuff underlined and dated so I could keep track of those answers.)

If I could communicate with God that way, then I was saved. It was really a bigger problem trying to just stay in touch with God and abide in the vine.

I think the Bible being the Word of God delves into semantics. The Bible is actually God's words written down, and his interactions with mankind. It is literally God's word, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Whereas Jesus was the Word made flesh. He was like the Bible, only walking and talking.

That's why God can talk to us through the Bible. There's something deeper going on than just ink and paper. Someone said once that "the Bible is the only book that reads you as you read it."

As for the formal religion thing, I don't have much of an answer for that. I'm one of those young Christians who stopped going to church when my family experienced abuse from a pastor. I have a church I've been visiting, but the munchkins come home with horrible viruses every week, and I just can't face it. So we haven't gone much. I do Bible studies every week with my family, so I haven't "forsaken the assembly of believers".

[Bainespal]

Thank you, Kessie. I appreciate the response, very much.

May 12, 2012 22:27:40 GMT -5 Kessie said:

What finally changed it was when I enrolled in an in-depth Bible study. I learned how to pray and ask God a specific question, and pinpoint his answer when it came in my Bible reading.

I find that interesting. The Bible is probably the predominate tool by which God speaks to people today. I'm not certain that I don't know what you mean; I've experienced reading the Bible and finding great relevance and insight, not only to the external aspects of my life but to my existential search for truth. Still, I don't think the Bible can be used to find answers for everything. I don't believe that the Bible is supposed to be an instruction manual. (And I'm not suggesting that you were saying that it is, either.)

I think the Bible being the Word of God delves into semantics. The Bible is actually God's words written down, and his interactions with mankind. It is literally God's word, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Semantics may be part of it. I agree that terminology doesn't matter; if I don't want to call the Bible the Word of God but have the same basic beliefs toward it as someone who does, then there is no significant difference. I think the greatest function of the Bible is to connect us with the great people of faith from the days when the eternal God walked and moved among men, especially in regard to His literal incarnation. However, I think if we go as far as to say that every word of the Bible came directly from God (which is further than saying that every word of the Bible is literally true -- that I do believe), there is the danger of putting faith in the Bible instead of faith in God. I think the Bible teaches us that our faith should be in Christ, and not in Scripture itself.

Whereas Jesus was the Word made flesh. He was like the Bible, only walking and talking.

I think it's much better to say that the Bible is like Jesus in some ways. Saying that Jesus was like the Bible seems to make Him inferior to the Bible, or at least to make the Bible equal to Him. I don't think the Bible should be considered equal to Christ.

I'm one of those young Christians who stopped going to church when my family experienced abuse from a pastor. I have a church I've been visiting, but the munchkins come home with horrible viruses every week, and I just can't face it. So we haven't gone much.

I am very sorry. I've known people in real life who have experienced the same thing at churches in my area. Even not having suffered at the hands of corrupt pastors, I know I would probably not go to church if I were not still living at home with my parents, not because I daon't value church but because it would be terrifying to walk through the doors of a church all alone, without knowing anyone. Even though church is important, it is surely no more the route to God and salvation than the Bible.

[dragonlots]

In Acts there was always 'evidence' of salvation but it has died during the centuries. This included things like speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc.

Unfortunately, they teach in seminaries that this died out because there was no more need for it and they've really got some mixed up ideas on what the 'gifts of the spirit' are for.

I myself speak in tongues. I did this as a child and it scared me because I didn't know what it was. Years later, I attended a group who helped me get over this fear. Since there was reason for me to know, long story, I know mine is a South African dialect. How I found is out was on PBS special. I don't remember the documentary but I recognized the language I spoke the moment I heard it. What I will say is that it rocked the word of a formally trained pastor.

I agree we all struggle with the same questions. I know I have. I won't say I have a 'final peace' about my faith, but I generally stay away from organized religion and their teachings. There are so many things that have gotten mixed in which don't belong.

What I will say, is that for the last ten years or so, there is growing movement away from the church. People are reading the Bible for themselves and discovering much of what they've been taught isn't really accurate. It's myth and legends. I won't begin to go into detail about the birth of Christ and how the 'traditional' scene set is just not correct at all.

Unfortunately, like most literature, the Bible has to be viewed with an Eastern mind set - not a Western one. I've had quite a bit of training in this arena and study God's Word this way. Many of the English translations, when you go back to the Greek or Hebrew, don't mean the same thing. Plus you have to understand history, culture, obscure Eastern references...when you do - the Bible comes to life in a way I can't begin to put into words.

What I will tell you is this, in Timothy, sorry I don't have the exact reference, it says,

Study to show thyself approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

There's your permission to study and question. Straight from God himself.

[Bainespal]

If I were to speak in Tongues, God would have to grant me that gift, or it would be no different than my many attempts to manufacture a conversion experience in order to assure myself. I don't believe that there can be any final or absolute evidence of salvation, definitely not externally.

May 13, 2012 19:47:15 GMT -5 dragonlots said:

What I will say, is that for the last ten years or so, there is growing movement away from the church. People are reading the Bible for themselves and discovering much of what they've been taught isn't really accurate. It's myth and legends. I won't begin to go into detail about the birth of Christ and how the 'traditional' scene set is just not correct at all.

Certainly, there's a lot of dogma in any Christian tradition, and that dogma doesn't often leave room for people to come to other conclusions, even though the tradition that made the dogmatic teaching is far from infallible.

The thing is, each tradition accuses the others of being dogmatic and legalistic. In my local community, in my family. and in inter-denominational groups that I've been a part of (such as my college's Campus Christian Fellowship), I've basically encountered three traditions -- Baptists, Roman Catholics, and Pentecostals/Charismatics. The Baptists always preach about how the Catholics get it wrong (without ever explicitly naming Catholicism, but it's clear). Baptist Communion services that I've participated in frequently contain the stern announcement -- "These elements are just symbols, they do not become the body and blood of Christ." Likewise, Pentecostal services that I've heard very frequently condemn churches that don't practice their view of the Gifts of the Spirit. One of the moments that made Evangelicalism distasteful to me was when I realized that the Pentecostals say the same things about the Baptists that the Baptists say about the Catholics.

I've known both Pentecostals and Baptists who believe that their traditions are not "denominations." Pentecostals in particular like to call themselves "non-denominational," but their beliefs and their criticism of others clearly separate them from other Evangelicals, let alone other Orthodox Christians. Therefore, I believe that even those Evangelicals who don't like the formal religious establishment are still dogmatic. Anti-establishment churches (or "worship centers" or whatever) are an establishment unto themselves.

Unfortunately, like most literature, the Bible has to be viewed with an Eastern mind set - not a Western one. I've had quite a bit of training in this arena and study God's Word this way. Many of the English translations, when you go back to the Greek or Hebrew, don't mean the same thing. Plus you have to understand history, culture, obscure Eastern references...when you do - the Bible comes to life in a way I can't begin to put into words.

This seems to contradict what you said above. If one has to have knowledge of "obscure" Eastern references in order to understand the Bible, then the general public wouldn't be able to read the Bible for themselves and learn that what they were taught is incorrect.

What I will tell you is this, in Timothy, sorry I don't have the exact reference, it says,

Study to show thyself approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

There's your permission to study and question. Straight from God himself.

Thank you. I think we need to study and question, or else we're not fulfilling our duty to God. I believe that we have no right to claim that Jesus is the Way, and that atheism or Islam or anything else is false, without experiencing the existential agony in our own souls and seeing that we desperately need Christ. However, I think we also need to keep in mind that we are just puffs of smoke, that we are incapable of being totally honest and cannot find total truth. Therefore, we can't claim to have the right way by which to reform all of Christianity. "...let God be true, and every man a liar." (Romans 3:4)

Let me say that I find your blog, "Why Not Question?", to be a sincere and real expression of the Christian's quest for truth. For that it, and your reply, are very encouraging to me.

[fluke]

Bainespal,

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope the answers from myself and others can help you.

Salvation:

Don't worry that the prayer didn't cause flashing lights and an appearance of Christ. There is no prayer that can save you. It's not magic. The "sinner's prayer" is not in the Bible. However, all the concepts in it are first stated in the Bible. Salvation comes to a person the instant they have faith and act on it. By acting on it, I am saying when they feel God has called them, they know they need Him, and accept it. This might mean walking down an aisle at Church camp (my testimony). It might be while talking with a pastor at your home and responding to God's call.

For some people the prayer helps as they then have a specific moment in time they can point to and say, when tempted with doubt, "No! At this time, I said aloud that I am a sinner and asked God to save me." If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you are saved.

Word
Don't let the overlapping of the words hurt your faith. It's a problem of concept, one that I had myself for a while. The Bible is the Word of God as in the message of God. Jesus as the Word of God appears in 4 verses of the New Testament, always by John. He uses the same word each time, logos, in the right contexts, which John uses, it is a philosophical concept meaning "the ordering power of the universe." John was playing against protognostics, a heresy that believed the Jesus spirit never came in the flesh because matter and spirit could not mix. Matter would soil the spirit. John starts out his gospel by linking Jesus to the ordering power, the pure spirit, and then while proto gnostics are nodding their heads in agreement, he drops the bomb. "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." [Note: a study on the use of logos in the Septuagint and which words it translates would be interesting.]

Among Jews, the word Torah has multiple meanings, and they don't see a contradiction in them. Torah can mean simply "law or instruction." It can refer to the first 5 books of the Old Testament, the books of Moses. The whole Old Testament can be called Torah since the Torah is the first section. This is "written Torah." Then the Talmud and Mishnah are called "Oral Torah." No, they don't think it's a contradiction in terms to have a set of books called "Oral Torah."

Add to that that Paul seems to regard Jesus as "the Living Torah," and you have a whole range of meanings on the word.

Formal Religion
Exactly as you said. There are Evangelicals who go through the motions, relying on a prayer they didn't mean and on works to make up the difference. And there are Catholics and Orthodox who perform the sacraments out of deep, deep devotion.

[Bainespal]

Ah... I was hoping you would reply. Thank you! You're a minister with the Assemblies of God, and that's got to be one of the most modern Evangelical denominations. And yet your stories are very aware of the historical Christian tradition, and you seem to be deeply familiar with the mystical Christian writers like Chesterton. Evidently, there must not be a discrepancy between the reverent tradition and the Evangelical practice for you.

May 14, 2012 21:01:54 GMT -5 fluke said:

Don't worry that the prayer didn't cause flashing lights and an appearance of Christ. There is no prayer that can save you. It's not magic. The "sinner's prayer" is not in the Bible. However, all the concepts in it are first stated in the Bible. Salvation comes to a person the instant they have faith and act on it. By acting on it, I am saying when they feel God has called them, they know they need Him, and accept it. This might mean walking down an aisle at Church camp (my testimony). It might be while talking with a pastor at your home and responding to God's call.

I believe this, now. I know that I have believed in Christ, believed that I needed Him. But if you ask me if I've ever really accepted Him, I'll examine myself and over think it and go crazy all over again. And yet, I still know that I am basically evil; I'm sure even my disillusionment with Evangelicalism comes from stubbornness. Does that mean I'm "saved" because I see it, or not "saved" because it's still there? I go in circles thinking this through over and over again.

I prefer not to think or speak in terms of "saved" or "unsaved" at all anymore, especially knowing that the "sinner's prayer" is ultimately meaningless in and of itself. I question the formulaic "Roman's road" that picks several verses here and there and makes them into an equation for "getting saved." When people speak about getting saved or being assured of one's salvation, I often go back to the endless circles of self-doubt and despair.

For some people the prayer helps as they then have a specific moment in time they can point to and say, when tempted with doubt, "No! At this time, I said aloud that I am a sinner and asked God to save me." If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you are saved.

I know. I've seen and known people who can testify that God changed their whole being in one moment. But that didn't happen for me. I can't manufacture that dramatic change. In my personal experience the prayer and the conversion experience are stumbling blocks.

Do I need to refer to salvation in the Evangelical sense of the prayer and the conversion experience? Am I unsaved if I don't like to talk in terms of "saved"?

Jesus as the Word of God appears in 4 verses of the New Testament, always by John. He uses the same word each time, logos, in the right contexts, which John uses, it is a philosophical concept meaning "the ordering power of the universe."

Jesus as the eternal Word of God is the most profound, wonderful, and glorious thought that has ever entered my little brain. It really is the only thing that gives me any sense of meaning in my miserable existence. I would hate to see that belittled in favor of a mere book, even if that book is no less than the Holy Scripture. However...

Among Jews, the word Torah has multiple meanings, and they don't see a contradiction in them.
[....]
Add to that that Paul seems to regard Jesus as "the Living Torah," and you have a whole range of meanings on the word.

That clarifies. Jesus as the Living Torah -- the Torah is obviously a concept much older and more genuine than Evangelical generalizations and colloquialisms. If the Apostles regarded Christ as the Living Torah, then Christ must have been a living embodiment of the whole essence of the Torah. Does that mean that the Torah is also Jesus? Is reading the Bible exactly the same as experiencing Jesus?

I have another problem with the Bible that I didn't mention before, but I think you may be able to help me. I read a liberal book once that said that none of our canonical Scriptures indicate what the other canonical Scriptures are. There is no "table of contents" in the Bible. The Epistle to Timothy says that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God," but it doesn't tell us exactly what books comprise "all Scripture."

I'm not a scholar, and I don't trust myself to be able to find truth in these matters. I do dismiss most of the liberal scholarship regarding dates and miracles, etc., in the Bible. The conservative dates and literal interpretations simply make much more sense to a normal person like me, and we believe that normal people were meant to understand the Bible. However, when the liberal scholars have a legitimate point, that point needs to be addressed.

The point about there not being a "table of contents" in Scripture itself is well taken. The only possible answer that I can think of is that we know the canonical Scriptures through tradition; we believe that God guided the ancient Jewish and Christian councils as they determined which old writings were accurate and authoritative. The only other explanation is that true Christians just know what the true Scriptures are, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But that goes into the same problem of my knowing that I'm "saved"; how do I know that the Holy Spirit is really enlightening me? Anyways, the personal inspiration explanation isn't good enough to account for the historical cannon.

That brings me to formal religion. Evangelicals have their own traditions; they accept the 66 canonical books of the Bible by tradition. I think it's terribly hypocritical for Evangelicals to condemn Catholics and other ancient liturgical groups, or to say that all human religious tradition is necessarily man's attempt to gain salvation by works.

Thank you, Mr. Luke.

[newburydave]

Bainespal:

Knowing that one is saved is the most critical, and often perplexing issue in our Christian walk with God. I was an atheistic Marxist when Jesus reached way down into the sewer of sin to pull me out, wash me clean and draw me to Himself.

I was brought up in a very liberal New England Congregational church which had departed from the original faith of our Pilgrim fathers into a comfortable "Sacramental Grace" form of religion.

ie. we were saved because we mouthed formula prayers of confession every Sunday and had all passed through the instruction (salvation by knowledge) and received the sacraments of baptism (the pastor dabbed some water on our foreheads) and confirmation (he then painted some oil on over the damp spot) and said the appropriate religious ritual over us.

I grew up with middle class "christian" ideas and morality but in my heart of hearts I was a church going pagan. After the formula of the sacraments they told me I was sure of heaven, no matter what and that just kicked my selfish, carnal nature into overdrive. I had the God thing fixed so now I could just enjoy myself and indulge in all the pleasures of sin I dared to sample. Over time I sampled and more than sampled a lot.

Needless to say that despite the sacramental grace I was supposed to have received from the religious formulas, at that point I was no more saved, born from above, regenerated and sanctified in Christ than the devil was. In a word the idea that going through a formula, any formula of religious works is nothing but another form of Works Righteousness with no power to change us or bring us any real assurance.

As the Bible teaches and the reformed faith affirms, Salvation is by Faith Alone (Sola Fide), Through Grace Alone (Sola Gracia), According to the Scriptures Alone (Sola Scriptura), so that God Alone receives Glory (Sola Gloria Dei).

The reason that the sacraments didn't do anything for me was that it was all a program of human study and effort. God had not given me Repentance (a change of mind/to think with my Higher mind that sees God revealed to me) and since repentance had not had the chance to do it's work in me He could not give me genuine Faith in Jesus (that actually sees Jesus, crucified) as my completely sufficient sin bearer to take away my sins and give me the inheritance among the children of God, born again from above.

I rarely characterize what happened to me as "Getting Saved", I met Jesus. I met the crucified, risen, glorified Christ at an old fashioned altar of prayer in a little nondescript church. He was Colocated with a spray of flowers on the other side of the altar rail from where I knelt and prayed. I didn't see a vision, my heart/spirit saw Him standing there when I finsihed weeping, telling Him I was all wrong, full of darkness and sorry for some of the things that even my hardened conscience recognized as wrong in the light of His presence in the person of the Holy Ghost.

Don't get the wrong idea please. The 22 year old me that knelt there at that altar didn't belong in a church. I was an avowed Communist Thug who not to long before thought that all churches should be closed, the pastors executed and any members who wouldn't recant should be murdered as well. I'd thought that all wealthy people (read middle class and above) were enemies of the people and should be liquidated. My brainwashing had been very thorough at the hands of the Marxist higher educational establishment through my almost five years of College.

I did not believe in Heaven or Hell, when I entered that church. Some of my fellow radicals were burning down historic churches in New England at that same time. I did not believe there was anything called sin, I was a true materialistic Marxist who believed that Man was the measure of all things; thus whatever a man wanted to do was morally right. It was the religious with their morality who were evil and morally wrong. My heart was so hard that I had not shed a tear in years, over everything. I met every disappointment with rage and violence. In my high handed sinning I had almost eradicated the image of God from my soul.

You see, my father had been the Moderator of our Congregational church. That would correspond to the Clerk of Sessions, in a Presbyterian church, or a Baptist President of the board of deacons. He and our pastor were the Lay and Clerical leaders of out church. While I was in High School the United Church of Christ was forming to provide a protestant political entity to counter the power of the Roman Catholic college of Bishops in the US.

The traditional Congregationalists in our church opposed the centralization of power and the imposed standardization of the forms of worship to make us more like the Episcopal church which the UCC partisans were forcing on all the churches who joined their banner. Bear in mind that these were people, most of whom had the same rotten "Sacramental Grace" Plus "Middle Class American morality" foundation that I did, who trusted mostly to tradition to make them feel saved. The UCC crowd was uprooting those traditions and there was war in the church. A very ugly church split resulted, we lost over half of our membership in the course of four or five years.

The Congo church is "The Church" of New England, the society of the town orbited around the Congregational Church and it's members. For our church to shatter like that caused social chaos in the small town where we lived. Our town's young people became a proverb for sexual immorality and corrupt lifestyle throughout the area.

The worst of the conflict played out in my living room. My father was the Lay leader of the church. Our pastor was a radical UCC man and the conflict raged around me during my teenaged years, we argued the issues over our living room table and I saw people who'd been held up to me as Christian people behave in the most hateful, partisan ways. No mercy, no regard for truth it was all about winning; and everyone in the church lost.

I lost what respect I had for Christianity. As I moved away to college I reasoned, "If this is the way Christians act toward each other then there is no God; it's all a scam." I went looking for a cause to fill the void in my life so I could feed my self righteousness and Satan filled the hollow places with his lies: Marxism and Materialistic Evolution. I became a Communist Activist, a terrorist in training; associating with some of the most violent groups in the movement. Hatred, violence and blood of the "guilty capitalists" was the new gospel of salvation that I believed.

But God.....

Had different plan for me than to let me dive into hell by the schemes of my own darkened heart.

He spoke to me when I wasn't seeking him, in the middle of the work day, and drew me out of that prision of corruption I'd built for myself until one day I walked into a little church where the Saints of God were blessed, before the music even started.

They'ed been praying and expecting to see God move and the Holy Spirit was so thick in the atmosphere of that sanctuary that when I walked in through the doors all of my Marxism, Materialism, Addictive hungers and rationalizations blew away like dry leaves before a hurricane.

I knew that I was in free fall down toward the flames of and Eternal hell. I knew I was filthy with sin against the Holy sovereign of the universe. I knew that there was no hope for me, I was lost.

How did I know? It was what Jesus promised us that when the Holy Ghost is come into the church and disciples that He, would reproove/convince the world of their Sin, Judgement to come and what Righteousness really is.

No body in that church talked to me that I remember. I don't know what the congregation sang or what the Preacher preached but when they asked if anyone wanted to pray and seek God I was the first one on my knees at that altar. I looked scary, but those dear old disciples gathered in to pray for me and beat back the devil as I prayed.

Then after I'd prayed everything I could think of (He brought a lot to mind, believe me) and couldn't think of another thing, somebody told me to look up and believe that Jesus would do what he promised and save me. I looked up and the eye of my heart/soul saw Jesus standing there right in front of me, replacing the spray of flowers. He put out his hand, touched me and said, "I will, be thou Clean."

You might ask why I heard Jesus speak in King James English. I don't know except that at that time all the bible believing churches still used the KJV. That was what sounded like holy language to us. I'd grown up with the anti-supernatural RSV, but even the higher critical translators of the RSV still tried to sound like the KJV in their language choices. I believe that language isn't really about words, it's about communication at a much deeper level, and our minds just sort of fill in words that sound appropriate to us; but that's just me and my friends all know that I'm wierd.

**********************

Okay, so what does my testimony have to do with your finding solid assurance of salvation, or to put it in more Biblical, Theological form; that we are in fact accepted in Christ and he has made us one of His Elect through faith.

(Please, Arminians, stay with me here; election is a Bible term which is Theologically neutral when you understand it in context)

There are two key scriptures that I'd like you to study in their context, Bainespal, out of context verses are nothing but seeds of heresy.

Romans 8:16 (read the whole chapter, it talks about the reality of the life of the redeemed)

1 John 5:6 (speaking about the certainty we have in Jesus)

These both speak about the Witness of the Spirit. This was the spiritual atomic bomb of the Methodist/Presbyterian revival which started in the early 1700's and in the earlier Quaker revival of the 1600's.

We can know, because the Sovereign God gives us a witness within us, that assures us regardless of our circumstances that He has accepted us as his own, He has ressurected our dead souls and He is present in us, saving and transforming us.

Over fourty plus years as a gospel preacher I've struggled trying to describe / explain what this Witness of the Spirit is. I can't do it because I've become convinced that it is customized to fit the heart and soul of each individual child of God.

At the heart of it the Witness is not a thing, an experience, a manifestation, a sign or any other "thing", "blessing", "artifact" or "religious experience." It is the "sustaining communication" of God's great heart of welcoming Love to each of us when we seek Him diligently until we find His comfort.

His witness to us answers our faith in Him, taking him at his word at the end of our striving. When we rest In Jesus as our only hope of salvation, Faith plus Nothing. He Assures us that this is enough.

And that is unshakable. I wouldn't have thanked an Angel if one had come down and told me I was saved ten seconds after Jesus touched me. I heard him and felt his life go down through me, awakening all the dead places in my body and soul. That was what it took to assure me.

Now my brother, you are not me. My experience wouldn't give you the assurance you seek, But God has an assurance for you that will satisfy you for now and eternally. Seek him diligently until you touch him (like the woman who touched the hem of his garment) and He will give it to you. The Bible promises this to us.

His blessings on you, I'll be praying.

SGD
dave

[fluke]

Bainespal,

Ah... I was hoping you would reply. Thank you! You're a minister with the Assemblies of God, and that's got to be one of the most modern Evangelical denominations. And yet your stories are very aware of the historical Christian tradition, and you seem to be deeply familiar with the mystical Christian writers like Chesterton. Evidently, there must not be a discrepancy between the reverent tradition and the Evangelical practice for you.

We can thank my Church history teacher from seminary for the tradition and a Catholic friend of mine for introducing me to Chesterton. We'll have to do that in Heaven, though.

There is a long line of Church history, with its own dark spots. But if we ignore the good because of the bad, we lose it all.

Does that mean I'm "saved" because I see it, or not "saved" because it's still there? I go in circles thinking this through over and over again.

Paul referred to himself as a wretched man who still did what he knew was wrong and did not do what he knew was right. We all battle the old self until death.

Don't worry about the terms; you can be accepted by Christ without using the term "saved." Dave mentioned 1 John 5 as a helpful chapter. It was for me when I was battling doubts in High school.

That clarifies. Jesus as the Living Torah -- the Torah is obviously a concept much older and more genuine than Evangelical generalizations and colloquialisms. If the Apostles regarded Christ as the Living Torah, then Christ must have been a living embodiment of the whole essence of the Torah.

Brad Young has an excellent chapter or so on The Living Torah in Paul, the Jewish Theologian. He says that Paul shows he was very confused until he came to see Jesus as the Living Torah and put Hm in the center of his life.

Does that mean that the Torah is also Jesus? Is reading the Bible exactly the same as experiencing Jesus?

Good questions, but no to both. We say "God is love" but we would not say, "Love is God."

I have another problem with the Bible that I didn't mention before, but I think you may be able to help me. I read a liberal book once that said that none of our canonical Scriptures indicate what the other canonical Scriptures are. There is no "table of contents" in the Bible. The Epistle to Timothy says that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God," but it doesn't tell us exactly what books comprise "all Scripture."

While it is true that there is no table of contents, the writers of the New Testament certainly let us know how they see Jewish writings. I did a little study on Paul's quotes last month, the results are in the question here

In short, while there is no table of contents, if an Apostle says "Scripture says" and then quotes a book of the Old Testament, we can be sure that book was seen as canonical. Likewise, even though there are a couple of ancient non-canonical writings quoted in the New Testament, they are never introduced by "Scripture says" or similar formulas.

The point about there not being a "table of contents" in Scripture itself is well taken. The only possible answer that I can think of is that we know the canonical Scriptures through tradition; we believe that God guided the ancient Jewish and Christian councils as they determined which old writings were accurate and authoritative.

Yes. An He did so even before the councils met. One of my professors did his dissertation on the formation of the New Testament canon. He found that the writer Iraneus (ca. 170) quoted every book of the New Testament (except for maybe one or two of the short ones) and introduced them with "Scripture says" or a similar formula. Whenever he quoted from the apocrypha or legends, he merely quoted them and never used the introductory quote.

The only other explanation is that true Christians just know what the true Scriptures are, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But that goes into the same problem of my knowing that I'm "saved"; how do I know that the Holy Spirit is really enlightening me? Anyways, the personal inspiration explanation isn't good enough to account for the historical cannon.

We have a canon of usage. A collection of books that no one could stop from being recognized as canon. I wish I had typed up my notes from "Formation of the Canon" class. I would just send you a copy. I could send you a copy of my paper from the class. We each had to study two books, one that was not recognized as canon and one which was debated but ultimately recognized. I choose 1 Enoch and Revelation. Are you interested? Just pm me with your email address.

That brings me to formal religion. Evangelicals have their own traditions; they accept the 66 canonical books of the Bible by tradition. I think it's terribly hypocritical for Evangelicals to condemn Catholics and other ancient liturgical groups, or to say that all human religious tradition is necessarily man's attempt to gain salvation by works.

Yes, we have tradition. Some will even admit it. A baptist pastor I met years ago said he found out the hard way how deeply entrenched tradition is in the Southern Baptists when he tried to change the order of service at his church. Little old ladies were having fits! An A/G minister spent six months once switching the places of the organ and the piano one inch at a time.

[Edited because a bad quote clip made it look like I was saying something I wasn't.]

[morganlbusse]

Bainespal,
I'm glad to see people here helping you and answering your questions. I am no theologian, so I don't have any deep answers for you. But I have been praying for you. I have also wrestled with faith questions. Sometimes it took months of wrestling. But in the end, it brought me closer to God and took the faith I have always known in my brain and finally imprinted it on my heart.

The only thing I can say about the "sinner's prayer" and salvation is that I never prayed a prayer either. As a child I prayed a lot about not going to hell. But it wasn't until I was 12 and hated God that God finally plucked me from the downward spiral of hatred and bitterness. It is only God who can save. We really can't even respond to Him until He initiates that spark of life inside of us because we are "dead" (Ephesians 2).

If you seek God with all your heart, you will find Him.

[Bainespal]

The immediate context of the two passages, Romans 8:18 and 1 John 5:6, seems to say that assurance is only inward, the witness of the Spirit. But both passages, especially Romans 8, do not seem to present a simple assurance, either.

Romans 8 seems to acknowledge that our current existence is basically one of suffering; we suffer with Christ, and we look with faith to the "glory which shall be revealed in us." We are saved "in hope," but we can't see that hope, because "hope that is seen is not hope." "We" -- Christians who have the "firstfruits of the Spirit" -- "groan within ourselves". What does that mean?

It's interesting that 1 John 5 moves from assurance of belief and of obedience to assurance that God hears prayer (verse 14). "...the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true..." An understanding of what? Of personal salvation rooted in a specific moment of time? Of the fact the Jesus is the meaning of life, that the eternal Word become flesh, and all things only have relevance in Him? Can the conviction that Christ really is the final need of humanity and the meaning of life be a kind of assurance?

May 15, 2012 20:01:42 GMT -5 newburydave said:

Over fourty plus years as a gospel preacher I've struggled trying to describe / explain what this Witness of the Spirit is. I can't do it because I've become convinced that it is customized to fit the heart and soul of each individual child of God.
[....]
Now my brother, you are not me. My experience wouldn't give you the assurance you seek, But God has an assurance for you that will satisfy you for now and eternally. Seek him diligently until you touch him (like the woman who touched the hem of his garment) and He will give it to you. The Bible promises this to us.

His blessings on you, I'll be praying.

I wonder if the assurance might be in the seeking, because we know that all who truly seek find. And we will probably all be lead through different journeys, I suppose.

Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate your concern deeply.

May 15, 2012 22:15:31 GMT -5 fluke said:

Good questions, but no to both. We say "God is love" but we would not say, "Love is God."

I think some people may go too far in considering the Bible to be the Word of God, or rather, I think it is possible to do so. The Bible is the Word (or word) of God in the sense of the message from God, but to delight in the Bible as "the Word" too much leads us to equate the entire concept of the Word of God in an ultimate sense to the Scripture. John tells us through Scripture that Christ is the ultimate Word of God through which all things were created long before any Scripture was inspired. The Bible did not exist in the beginning with God; all things were not made through the Bible.

Yes, we have tradition. Some will even admit it. A baptist pastor I met years ago said he found out the hard way how deeply entrenched tradition is in the Southern Baptists when he tried to change the order of service at his church. Little old ladies were having fits! An A/G minister spent six months once switching the places of the organ and the piano one inch at a time.

May 16, 2012 8:01:46 GMT -5 morganlbusse said:

The only thing I can say about the "sinner's prayer" and salvation is that I never prayed a prayer either. As a child I prayed a lot about not going to hell. But it wasn't until I was 12 and hated God that God finally plucked me from the downward spiral of hatred and bitterness. It is only God who can save. We really can't even respond to Him until He initiates that spark of life inside of us because we are "dead" (Ephesians 2).

Thank you. Hearing the experiences of others who were raised in Evangelicalism may be more insightful to me than a deep study of theology, partly because I don't believe that we can know the absolute truth of theological matters (because very sincere Christians disagree about theology). We are dead and in need of salvation, but we usually can't have a very clear conversion experience even if we seek one. Sometimes, we don't even have a date or time to remember at all. I think we who were raised in "saved" churches and families can only experience assurance through the journey of seeking, at least in some cases.

Thank you, all.

[fluke]

I want to extend the offer I made to Bainespal to others. Anyone interested in the canonization paper can pm me. It deals also with the general concerns for which books were recognized as Scripture.

[dragonlots]

Actually, my comment about Eastern cultures and being to understand the Bible isn't a contradiction.

For instance, remember the parable about the woman who lost the piece of silver? She swept the house until she found it and then called her neighbors together to rejoice? We in the west don't understand why she would have done so.

However, in their culture, the ten pieces of silver belong to the husband and is given to his wife during their wedding, normally only worn for special occasions. If she looses a piece and doesn't find it, she can be put out of the house by her husband and pretty much shunned. That's why she searched so hard for it and then called her neighbors to rejoice.

We need to understand this about the culture in order to understand why Jesus would have taught this particular parable. His audience understood the importance - but we here in the west - well, some of the teachings I've heard on it are Wwaaayyyy off base.

It's like an English teacher giving a student the background on a writer or time period so a story or book they're reading in Literature class will make sense. It's the same with the Bible.

You wanted to know what some things meant – I went back to the Greek to find the answers.

'Groan to ourselves' in Romans 8:23 is the Greek word stenazo which means to sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly.

First fruits is the word aparche. A beginning of sacrifice. It’s a compound of two other words: Apo - separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal and archomai - precedence, in order of time, rehearse from the beginning.

So literally the verse would read : Not only all of creation groans for the return of Jesus but we too, who are the beginning of the sacrifice, separation, departure, reversal for the world in the Spirit, even we ourselves murmur, sigh and pray inaudibly, waiting to assume our positions as sons of God, to wit the ransom, redemption of our body. (New body actually. That's discussed in Thes. in the passage about JC's return.)

witness in Romans 8:16 is the Greek word summartureo - which means to testify jointly, ie corroborate by concurrent evidence - testify unto, also bear witness with

Interesting the use of the phrase ‘concurrent evidence’. What I suggest is going back and studying Acts because it talks about what happened during the early church and ‘evidence’ they were saved and how it manifested itself.

1 John 5:6 is a different Greek word - mart - means to be a witness, bear testimony.

Glory, vs 8:18 doxa - brilliance, dignity, glorious, honor, praise, worship
revealed - apokalupto, to take off the cover, to uncover, mix of apo, which I discussed earlier and kalupto, to cover up, cover, hid

Same verse sufferings - pathema - something undergone, hardship or pain. an emotion or pain - affection, affliction, motion, suffering. Need to include pathos - a passion, concupiscence, in oridinage, affection, lust.

Literal translation: for I believe the hardship, pain, afflictions, affections, passions of today are nothing compared with the glorious honor praise worship and brilliance which shall be uncovered, revealed, shown in us.

hope - elpis - 8:24 means from the primary elpo to anticipate, usually with pleasure, expectation or confidence. , later part of the verse what a man seeth , why doth he yet hope for elpizo - to expect or confide, have, thing hoped for/trust, vs 25 hope is same word, means the same

Literal translation: for we are saved with the pleasure, expectation and confidence for we have these things and have not yet seen them, for what the unsaved expect or trust is what they see in the world so what do they have to look forward to? (Again, look at Thes.)

One thing I will add here. I can’t give you an actual historical reference but I’ve had it confirmed by a seminary student.

Adoption is very important. Not just the fact that it grants the Gentiles sonship rights along with the Jews, but because in Roman culture, it had a very strong significance.

Under Roman law, a biological child could be disinherited. However, an adopted child could NOT because they were chosen.

Think about the usage of that word in Paul’s writings. Paul, a Roman citizen, the Christians who were part of that culture, who all understood what it meant.

Literally, God has chosen us and will NOT disinherit us.

Wow!

Just in case anyone is curious, I am an ordained minister through the Universal Life Church in Modesto, CA. I've had unofficial but intense theological training, which is why I'm able to tear verses apart to figure out what they actually mean.

Your reference in 1 John 5:14 doesn't match up with any of the four versions I have. The verse talks about knowing we can go to God to pray about anything. I don't see any references to 'understanding'.

Do you have a concordance and a Bible dictionary? These are two things I strongly suggest adding to your library if you don't. I use Young's Concordance and have two Bible dictionaries, Strong's and Vine's. I also have one on Bible history, culture and several on Easternisms.

Since I've mentioned Thes. It's 4:13 to the end of the chapter.

Paul says, literal translation:

Why in the world are you carrying on and mourning like the unbelievers who didn't accept Christ? I want you to know about those who have died in the faith.

We all know Jesus died and rose again. So will those who died in Christ for God will bring them with JC.

Here's what I know because God told me, those of us who are alive and still living on the Earth, when Christ returns, will not reach heaven before those who died.

For there will be a thunderous shout from heaven by the archangel as Jesus returns, the trumpet of God will blare, and those dead in Christ will rise first.

Then all of us still living will ascend into the clouds meeting our Lord in the air. After that, we'll always be with him.

Remember these words and comfort each other with them.

At the end of Chapter 5 Paul gives some interesting exhortations. I won't repeat them all but here are a few that have all but vanished in most, but not all denominations.

Quench not the Spirit. (How many churches have done this?)

Despise not prophesyings. (scriptural or other, prediction)

There are two kinds, people who through the spirit bring a warning or are shown a glimpse of the future.

The second is forth telling - a message of comfort from God. Often confused with translating tongues. The person who speaks in tongues also has the ability to translate what they say. It just isn't taught that way.

Pray without ceasings. (tongues is useful for this.)

Rejoice evermore. (tongues can be used here too.)

Prove all things: hold fast that which is good. (Again, permission to research, ask questions and learn - straight from God.)

In Him,
DB

[Bainespal]

May 16, 2012 13:44:09 GMT -5 dragonlots said:

hope - elpis - 8:24 means from the primary elpo to anticipate, usually with pleasure, expectation or confidence. , later part of the verse what a man seeth , why doth he yet hope for elpizo - to expect or confide, have, thing hoped for/trust, vs 25 hope is same word, means the same

Literal translation: for we are saved with the pleasure, expectation and confidence for we have these things and have not yet seen them, for what the unsaved expect or trust is what they see in the world so what do they have to look forward to? (Again, look at Thes.)

How do you know that "man" in Romans 8:24 literally means "unsaved"? I assumed "for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" was a rhetorical question, indicating that hope that is seen is not really hope; we have to go without seeing our great Hope while we suffer in the present, etc.

Your reference in 1 John 5:14 doesn't match up with any of the four versions I have. The verse talks about knowing we can go to God to pray about anything. I don't see any references to 'understanding'.

I'm sorry. The reference went with the previous sentence; I was being rather sloppy by not referencing everything I quoted or alluded to. I was quoting 1 John 5:20, here in the King James:
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. That is the true God, and eternal life.[/i]

Thank you for doing all that research for me.

[catofninetales]

"if you ask me if I've ever really accepted Him, I'll examine myself and over think it and go crazy all over again."

Bainespal, I'd echo some of what newburydave and others had to say. Our acceptance of God is on a different order from God's acceptance of us. I couldn't say how it is that God makes Himself known to me, for instance, but not my atheist relatives. What I know is that (1) He is good and (2) He drew me to Him (3) His goodness operates in their lives as well, and He is not accountable to explain Himself to me. As you said, hell is just.

Because of the naturalistic influences in my family, it's been easy in the past for me to feel like my faith is a schizophrenic delusion, as in, yes I believe it, but maybe I put my trust in something I'd only imagined. I just think the recurrent evidence adds up over time: answered prayer, impossible serendipity, the immediate sense of fellowship with brethren in Christ (as a diehard introvert, that's not normal for me at all).

My father-in-law has an interesting way of looking at people who profess Christ but don't live like they mean it. He (by hard experience) says that those who don't actually belong to God will go on in sin without feeling it--it's their native state. Those who belong to God, even if they can't figure out how to break free of their problems and struggles, will be in misery. Their citizenship is in heaven; they are a new creation.

At our worst, most doubtful, most rebellious or disobedient, most disconnected from God--we are still God's own.

When I think of "has given us an understanding," that's what I think of. I found Christ as an adult, and that understanding of things of which the Holy Spirit convicts (sin, righteousness, repentance) was simply not there in a coherent way until God saved me.

A favourite quote of mine: "The heart has its reasons, whereof reason knows nothing." -Blaise Pascal

In spite of the fact that I blog about thinky things and use a lot of vocabulary sometimes, I live my spiritual life more by that thought of Pascal's than any clear-cut theology.

I think if I have a beef with modern evangelicalism, it's that it has so little theology--most of it has been replaced by methodology. Fiction is frivolous, you must pray a prayer, hedonism is free grace (uh, no)...It may simply mean the corporate, visible church is mostly dead in the western countries, even as it's growing in Africa and Asia. If that's true, we are wise to be disillusioned with the external structure and the culture. That's different than disillusionment with God Himself.

"I wonder if the assurance might be in the seeking, because we know that all who truly seek find."

...Not all who wander are lost.

Blessings,

~Cat