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Post by newburydave on May 17, 2012 18:37:19 GMT -5
Hey Cat; A very succinct statement of "practical" truth. I like.  My emphasis in the long post I put in earlier was that the Witness of the Spirit (KJV english, I used that version, taught and preached from it for more than 30 years) is the Assurance God means to give us to base our Christian hope upon. When Jesus said to Peter "My father has revealed this truth about me to you, thus you are a stone, and upon this bedrock (from which you have been hewn; this direct inward revelation of Christ) I will build my church; and the gates of hell won't be able to defend the dead world from my church." (dave's free translation) I believe that he was pointing to this "inward witness" as the unshakable foundation of our own personal Hope in Christ (we are saved by hope) and the unshakable foundation of the "Organic" church which grows from we individual disciples into a mighty army and building for God's habitation. I felt that this was the thing that Bainespal was seeking. I know it was the thing that obsessed me in my early years as a Christian, how do I know that my faith is genuine and not presumptuous? How do I know that I am truly accepted, grafted into the true olive tree and part of God's chosen elect? My basic degree was Philosophy and Comparative Religion. I've studied a lot of Theology in my life (it is after all Philosophy about God, though poorly reasoned all too frequently) The comparatively inadequate rigor of the arguments contained in Theology did nothing to satisfy me on the count of personal assurance, (not surprising since it is the product of our fallen reasoning powers) so I looked within to what the Holy Spirit was doing as he renovated my newly resurected soul. John Bunyan in "The Pilgrims Progress" made reference to the Inward Witness (the Scroll he found hidden in his bosom on the Hill of Difficulty). Also, the churches which brought me to God insisted, "Don't stop praying short of receiving a definite witness from God to your soul that He has Saved you!" Over the years I've seen that old path erode to a more comfortable, and easier to administer "Salvation by Logical Deduction"; ie. the Sinners formula prayer. I feel like this is just one more compromise with the worldly ways of our depraved reasonings. This inward witness of His Spirit with My Spirit that I am his child and a co-Heir with Jesus to his Kindom, had carried me through 41 years of frontline battle for souls and six near death experiences (when all my religion and theology evaporated with the rest of the world as I felt myself slipping out into eternity.) If I'd been trusting to ANY reasoning or formula of Man's invention my faith would not have held at the crossing. This taught me that the inner witness, because it is God the Holy Ghost/Christ within us, is eternal and dependent on God alone. Therefore it can endure anything, even death and hold us strong. All things that depend on our depraved human reasoning power, mental clarity or memory fall away and lose what little power they had in the deep waters and the dark night of the soul. They are not compounded of Faith, Hope and Love, thus they do not endure into eternity, they stop at the borderland and cannot enter the heavenly realms. Recently I've come to suspect that these logical and theological props for our faith smack of a kind of mental works righteousness. Calvin and Augustine (from whom Calvin drew his theological basis) taught that if a person abandoned Christian Virtue before they died, or found they had no enduring faith in the chill waters of Jordan (death) then they were not really one of the Elect, they never really were saved; because "the elect persevere in Grace regardless of their circumstances." The emphasis that they brought to this statement was a practical definition of Grace as something active in us that changes us in this world into an expression of Jesus' character. The Biblical doctrine of this transformation which Grace works in us is called Sanctification, theologically (see Rom. 12:2 for a succinct statement of the dynamic of the Sanctification process) I Believe this agrees, at least in part, with your father-in-law's view of the practical working of faith in those who profess Christ. As a student of Philosophy (before I met Jesus) I ended up as a student of classical culture and thought in general (Greco-Roman time period) An interesting aside is that to the classical mind (around the time of Christ) your Faith was always expressed in how you lived. If you didn't live it then you didn't truly believe it, regardless how strongly you professed. My sadness at the state of modern Evangelicalism is that, as you mentioned people are not grounded in sound theology and thus too often I see people use pop-theology to excuse their sins and faults. In doing this they short circuit the Sanctification work which the Holy Spirit is trying to do in our hearts and lives. In our ignorance of deep truth, we are satisfied with a few fragments of out of context theology-speak about our fallibility/sinfulness and fail to feel the contrition we should over the fact that our failure to reflect the character of Jesus in a situation blocks the effectiveness of our witness and gives Christianity a reputation of ineffectuality before the ones we seek to win to Christ. This failure should lead us to repentance from our self sufficiency and to a surrender of ourselves fully to God (Rom. 12:1) but our ignorant use of theology hinders us from hearing God's call in our failures and taking the next step of faith. Sanctification is God's will for all of us, that is stated clearly in many places in the new testament, so that we may prove by living out what God's will is for mankind. "Thy will be done, in Earth as it is in Heaven" Jesus taught us to pray. Satan's children aren't going to do God's will so I guess that line is a prayer for grace so that we can do His will.  "So I say, Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." (Gal. 5:16 NIV) [the Amplified states it even more powerfully] and again: "Since we live by The Sprit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." (Gal. 5:25 NIV)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh (gr. Sarks - depraved nature), but according to the Spirit." (Rom. 8:1 NKJV)
Write on beloved Siblings!
Bear His Flame, Be the Light!
SGD
dave |
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Post by Bainespal on May 17, 2012 19:54:33 GMT -5
I think if I have a beef with modern evangelicalism, it's that it has so little theology--most of it has been replaced by methodology. I think my problem is that Evangelicalism often seems to ignore the inner human struggle. We're given doctrine that we have to accept on authority. At the best of times, Evangelical teaching can indeed be relevant to the human condition. However, I think as rule, Evangelicalism is too practical. That's a well-placed reference! Tolkien's line comes as a great encouragement to me at this moment. That little poem in The Lord of the Rings can perhaps speak of the experience of disillusionment. Deep roots are not reached by the frost. I felt that this was the thing that Bainespal was seeking. I know it was the thing that obsessed me in my early years as a Christian, how do I know that my faith is genuine and not presumptuous? How do I know that I am truly accepted, grafted into the true olive tree and part of God's chosen elect? Those questions have also obsessed me. I have also wondered how I can know that I believe for the right reasons. I can't simply believe because I was taught to believe, because many people have grown up being taught to believe false religions. When you received this witness, did it last forever? You've been through incredible trials. Did the witness ever go away? I've had moments of assurance that I could not explain, but they all passed quickly. |
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Post by newburydave on May 18, 2012 13:12:21 GMT -5
Bainespal;
That assurance is always there, even though sometimes like Christian on the Hill of difficulty I lose sight of it.
By analogy when you build a house you put it on a solid foundation, that won't crumble, move or wash away. (in olden times you'd try to put it on bedrock).
I don't usually think about my foundation (I built my own house) but I know it's there because it holds up the house that I live in day by day.
If I'm ever shaken I can go check on it, I might have to dig to get at some of it which is hidden from sight but if I'm willing to dig it's always still there, doing it's job of holding us up.
I had an incident some years ago now. I was at work and the Lord was using me to gather a band of new converts out of my work mates. Ultimately we would found a new church in that city. This day I was caught up in something and by quitting time I was convinced I'd grieved away the Holy Ghost and had committed the unpardonable sin.
(Before any one tries to correct me, I believe God's inspired word over the reasonings of man created theology and I don't really want to get into that discussion in this thread anyway. If you want to discuss it further please start a new thread.)
The standard interpretation of that passage in Hebrews where it talks about God cutting off the one who "crucifies Christ afresh and counts the blood of his sacrifice an unclean thing" is that when that happens the Holy Ghost stops talking to that person and never bothers them again. If he doesn't draw us we can't go to him and be saved, or reclaimed.
I was convinced I was over that line and left work in black despair. As I was driving home The Holy Ghost slipped up next to me and started to give me a thorough verbal thrashing for being so stupid and thoughtless. He took me to the symbolic woodshed and and took a layer of hide off of me. (I so totally deserved it too.)
Well, I got so blessed that I had a shouting spell right there in the car on route 110 in West Newbury, Massachusetts. He was still talking to me, he hadn't given my up as beyond repentance. That was part of my Witness of assurance at that moment. It is the communication of God to my soul that I'm his, even when I mess up big time.
He's taught me that another assurance is when I am enabled to act right in situations where before I received saving grace I would have always acted wrong. He pointed out to me that since I never succeeded in those areas before (ie. forgiving people, admitting I am wrong when my emotions are aflame, denying myself, etc.) the fact that I have a success means He is in me, willing and doing through me what He desires and what pleases Him not what used to please me.
So, His inward check, reproof and conviction is part of my supernatural witness; and victory in areas where in my own strength I was always defeated is another part of it. But the original witness is always still there when I get desperate and look to Him for assurance (go digging).
The most blessed example of that was when I went into the hospital with Congestive Heart Failure at 25% ejection fraction (for you non medico's that means "a drop dead immediately" condition). The drug they gave me I'm allergic to and anaphalactic shock set in, the remaining part of my lungs started to fill up. I couldn't breathe and no body answered my call button.
As I lay there, drowning in the hospital bed, I realized that this was it, I was going home. I reached for my past religious service, it was part of this world and was fading with the world around me. I tried to grasp my theological knowledge, it was less than a vapor with no substance that touched my need right there at the border of death. I looked at all my religion and works of faith over the years and they were not able to buoy my soul up to heaven, they were of this world and wrought in this world, they had no power beyond the veil.
Finally I just looked up to God himself, naked of anything of this Earth. Like a flash of light He was there, flooding my soul with assurance and joy beyond anything I'd ever experienced before. I can't describe what I saw in that instant but I wanna go there.
My wife came in about then and she got my cardiologist, who happened to be there at the hospital, on that floor. The next thing I knew I woke up in Intensive care, hours later they told me; and, well I'm still here so I must have more to do before I rotate home from this battlefield.
To me that was the most powerful example of the Witness of the Spirit. He gave me the assurance I needed when I looked to him, communicated directly to my soul in the hour of desperate need.
It revolutionized my Christian walk and changed a lot of my Religious notions and practices (well it threw most of my notions overboard and pulled me closer to the Scriptures in practical matters.) It also confirmed me in my conviction that Theology, though it is useful, is not totally reliable nor accurate; and it cannot be relied on to help when the real crunch comes. The Word and the Spirit are the only one's we can rely on when the world is dissolving around us.
Walk in the Spirit my brother, Live in Him and be victorious.
SGD
dave
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Post by j2starshine on May 18, 2012 22:14:38 GMT -5
Hey. Good thoughts have been shared here and I've mulled over this thread for awhile. I've gone through doubts, had a crisis of faith and then more doubts. And God brought me through it all. I just wanted to share a little about that and maybe you can glean something from it. I had to learn that feelings are temporary and can distort the thoughts, reality, etc. Sometimes I dug deep into God's word, but a lot of times, I cried and prayed, asking God to hold me tight because I didn't want to slip away in my doubt. I kept seeking Him, crying out to him, and reading the Bible and God gave me verses that helped me through it and relieve my fears and doubts. God is so much bigger than the Bible and He will reveal stuff to you as you read and seek Him. Anyways, these are some of the verses that brought comfort. Romans 5:8-10 "But God demonstrated His own love toward us, in that while were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." 1 John 3:18-20 "My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things." John 15:9-12 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you: abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you that My joy may remain in you and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." John 8:31,32 "Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." This is my life verse. know the truth and the truth will set you free. despite what we feel. That and Proverbs 3:5,6 When I first became a Christian I prayed that over and over... anyways, hope that encourages you. Keep pressing though, keep reading the Bible, even if its like chewing cardboard...God will speak to you, reveal truths to you. It just takes time. Now...I'm reminded I need to practice what I preach |
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Post by Bainespal on May 19, 2012 8:38:09 GMT -5
This day I was caught up in something and by quitting time I was convinced I'd grieved away the Holy Ghost and had committed the unpardonable sin. I also once believed that I had committed the unpardonable sin. For a few days, I was completely convinced that I was going to hell. I believed I was going to hell with as much certainty as I ever believed anything, I think. There was no definitive end to that experience; my parents and pastors tried to convince me that I couldn't possibly have committed the unpardonable sin, and it just got old. I don't mean to start the theological debate about that topic, either, I'm just saying that I know the experience. I think I understand the concepts of reproof, conviction, and victory. It's the "inward check" and the supernatural witness that I don't think I have. Thank you for sharing all of that. God is so much bigger than the Bible and He will reveal stuff to you as you read and seek Him. That is a good thought. Part of my frustration is that Evangelicalism -- as characterized in my mind -- does not really allow God to be bigger than the Bible. Thank you. I appreciate the empathy, the encouragement. |
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Post by newburydave on May 19, 2012 16:04:04 GMT -5
Bainespal;
Just a quick thought that I recieved by revelation while going out for Chinese takeout last night. (yeah I know not the expected venue for revelation).
The Bible teaches us that this world, the most real parts of it are all but a shadow of the real (the law [the whole Jewish legal system of sacrifices and observances which dealt with sin] is only a shadow of Christ, who is the reality).
James tells us our lives are a vapor.
Jesus is and his atonement is reality.
Jesus raising us from the dead and giving us eternal life is reality.
God's life in our soul is reality.
God the Holy Ghost and his presence, gifts, ministry in us is reality.
Answers to prayer are reality.
God's blessing on our hearts and the joy he pours into us is reality.
Basically anything that is God intruding into this world is reality, everything else about this world is only shadows, 4 dimensionial shadows; holographic shadows if you will, but shadows none the less.
All the things that religion fights about, church, property, money, theology, church govenment are creations of man; they are all of this world, shadow figures on the wall (to quote Plato's analogy).
When churches and relgious movements start to take themselves seriously, as if they were reality not just shadows, they rapidly start to stink and breed worms (of strife, war and hatred; all the anti-virtues).
We only stand secure in Jesus when we major on reality, keeping the fire of His presence burning in our hearts and lives.
Therefore; let us major on all the reality things that He has given us and really prosper. Let the dead play with their shadow puppets, let's go preach the gospel of the kingdom.
SGD
dave
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Post by Kessie on May 19, 2012 18:56:21 GMT -5
Baines: Have you ever heard the song "Smell the Color 9" by Chris Rice? Your remarks remind me strongly of that song. I think it's good to have a crisis of faith. We're supposed to "work out our own faith with fear and trembling". When I was a teenager, I had a really bad one and I wrote a big long story of a character dealing with the same thing. Eventually I came back to that scene in Luke, I think it is, when a bunch of Jesus's followers turn and leave him. Jesus looks at the Twelve and says, "Are you leaving, too?" And Peter replies, "Lord, where would we go? You have the truth." Also, Dave, everything you said about theology and manmade rules resonates so much with me. I've been reading through the Bible in the Amplified, and I feel like I'm really getting a grasp on my own faith for the first time. Things that I never understood, like when Jesus said, (Luke 8:18) "To he who has much, more will be given, and he who has little, even what he has will be taken away." In the Amplified, that says, " Be careful therefore how you listen. For to him who has [spiritual knowledge] will more be given; and from him who does not have [spiritual knowledge], even what he thinks and guesses and supposes that he has will be taken away."
I understand that for the first time in my life! |
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Post by Bainespal on May 19, 2012 21:15:26 GMT -5
The Bible teaches us that this world, the most real parts of it are all but a shadow of the real (the law [the whole Jewish legal system of sacrifices and observances which dealt with sin] is only a shadow of Christ, who is the reality). Let it be so! One thing I've gotten from my reading of Tolkien essay "On Fairy Stories" and his poem "Mythopoeia" and C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce (all of which I've read recently), is that human art is an expression of the eternal reality that must exist, but which we do not experience. And God must be the ultimate reality, the I AM. So the question for us is whether we are of the Reality or the shadow. Baines: Have you ever heard the song "Smell the Color 9" by Chris Rice? Your remarks remind me strongly of that song. No, I'm not familiar with that title or artist. It may be good to have a crisis of faith, I don't know. But I doubt it's good to only ever be in a state of crisis. It's true that creativity does flow from faith crisis. I think it's the tension between our shadow and the Reality that we need to experience that can give us creative inspiration in times of crisis. |
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Post by Kessie on May 19, 2012 22:22:26 GMT -5
Baines: Here's the song on youtube with lyrics: www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWaamcsGC7s"I would take "no" for an answer Just to know I heard You speak And I'm wonderin' why I've never Seen the signs they claim they see Are the special revelations Meant for everybody but me? Maybe I don't truly know You Or maybe I just simply believe" A crisis of faith is just the thing that makes you really peg down what you believe and why you believe it. If you never go through that, you never really make your faith your own. Also, make sure you read or listen to big slabs of the Bible itself. Faith comes by hearing the Word. :-) |
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Post by dragonlots on May 20, 2012 15:00:29 GMT -5
Okay, I went and looked up Grieve, lupeo - distress, be made sorry, to be sad, sorrowful.
Entire verse Eph. 4:30. KJV. and grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed until the day of redemption.
Sealed, sphragizo - to stamp with a signet or private mark for security or preservation
redemption - apolutrosis - ransom in full, deliverance.
day - hemera - time between dark & dawn, 24 hrs, forever, judgement, time, while, years
You're also taking the verse out of context. What is Paul talking about here? He is saying: Literal translation Eph. 4:29-32.
Don't say bad stuff about other people, but only say what is great about building up other folks which gives grace (devine unmerited favor) unto those listening.
Don't make the holy spirit of God unhappy because you're got a signet or mark that sets you apart, protects you, when the time of deliverance happens.
Let all your anger, bad feelings, fury, vile stuff you say, be tossed away.
Be good to each other, soft hearted, forgiving, even as God forgives us through Jesus who is sitting there saying, "Dad, he's sorry."
As for the unpardonable, unforgivable sin. There are only three beings who will be thrown into the lake of fire forever - the devil, anti christ and false prophet. (rev. 20:10) They're the ones who have committed this sin.
This happens at the final judgement. The books are opened and any one whose name is NOT found in the Book of Life is tossed into the lake of fire, along with death and the grave. Yes, I know the translation says hell, but the Greek word means 'the grave'.
It also calls this the second death. What that means is a final physical and spiritual death. Understanding this makes me wonder if they're really tormented forever, or if God, in all His mercy, allows them to die after a time. Yeah, I know, it isn't what religion teaches.
However, what could be more horrible than the God you denied, getting you out of the grave, putting you before his throne, the horrific realization you were wrong!, seeing His glory and the Son of God, knowing you've missed your chance, being judged and then being tossed into the lake of fire either to be punished for X amount of time or dying forever and never getting to spend eternity with God.
No wonder there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!
I've been studying this passage and related ones for years. I don't have all the pieces yet - there's some information missing.
Remember, there is only one verse that specifically names the three beings who will be punished forever. Nothing is said about the nonbelievers other than they suffer the second death.
Unfortunately, in our day and time, there are many who wouldn't think dying forever would be such a bad fate - except they haven't taken into consideration what happens BEFORE they're allowed to die for all eternity. That's the horrific part!
Plus, the only ones who will already be in heaven at that time will be God, JC, the angels and the Christians. Everyone else, like King David, Noah, Adam & Eve, etc. won't get out of the grave until the judgement. (I strongly disagree with Jenkins and LaHaye's on this point since they had the Bible greats alive during the 1000 year reign.) All these folks didn't live under Grace like we do. They'll need to be judged according to the law or whatever system they lived under. I'm still working on it but I suspect that's why there's the Book of Life along with other books.
Somewhere, and I'm not sure where, Christians only have to 'give an account' and are awarded accordingly. It never actually says we'll be judged.
Just a FYI - we all have crisis of faith. Even I have. I've had years where I walked my own path or researched others. I finally came back to God. He's never let me down and sometimes given me things when I least deserved it. Most definitely made me wait for others until I was ready - and for that - I'm extremely grateful.
Besides, I was researching some of the early founding fathers, like Adam, etc. If they can have children at over a hundred years old, Seth was born when Adam was 130, I think I can start a new career in my mid years - despite what our culture and so called 'experts' keep trying to advise. (My own struggle right now since I need a living wage job and am enrolled in school next fall.)
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Post by Bainespal on May 20, 2012 16:08:22 GMT -5
"I would take "no" for an answer Just to know I heard You speak And I'm wonderin' why I've never Seen the signs they claim they see Are the special revelations Meant for everybody but me? Maybe I don't truly know You Or maybe I just simply believe" A crisis of faith is just the thing that makes you really peg down what you believe and why you believe it. If you never go through that, you never really make your faith your own. Thank you. That's a good song. Finding God on our own probably is like trying to "smell the color 9." I've been reading one chapter a day for a few years, starting in Genesis, and now I'm almost through the Bible (the end of I Corinthians). The Bible is surely inspiring, satisfying, insightful, and mysterious. I believe the Bible, but I have a hard time accepting any particular scheme of doctrine. I do not think that I am wiser than the theologians who have interpreted Scripture, but based on the fact of human failability and the fact that sincere and smart theologians disagree so dramatically, I don't really think we can know very much with certainty. I accept the truth and authority of the Bible, but I don't like it when we go beyond the words to form schemes of theology. That's one of the reasons that I'm not so comfortable with the over-use of the "saved" terminology. My church is Dispensational, and although I don't particularly disbelieve Dispensationalism, I don't think human wisdom is qualified to go through all Scripture and decide just how Scripture should be broken up and interpreted. Dave made the point well earlier in this thread that theology is a thing of this world. It will perish, and it is uncertain. You're also taking the verse out of context. What is Paul talking about here? I'm not sure what you're replying to. I apologize to Dave; I would have preferred not to debate this subject, either, since it makes me very uncomfortable. But this serves to demonstrate my point about the uncertainty of theology. My church also doesn't really believe in a final, unpardonable sin. The theological reason that my church would give for rejecting the unpardonable sin is far different from your reason, but that's not my point. When someone reads Mark 3:29, "...he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness..."[/i], without being a theologian and without having been "brainwashed" into accepting an unverifiable scheme of theology that was made by fallible humans, it's hard not to tremble. But more importantly, how did the disciples of Jesus see that verse? They didn't have the entirety of Scripture, and Jesus seems to have condemned the legalistic schemes of theology that existed at the time. (I'm not sure if He entirely condemned theology; maybe someone else has a better idea.) The people who heard Jesus speak probably were not theologians. |
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Post by Bainespal on May 20, 2012 16:09:54 GMT -5
"I would take "no" for an answer Just to know I heard You speak And I'm wonderin' why I've never Seen the signs they claim they see Are the special revelations Meant for everybody but me? Maybe I don't truly know You Or maybe I just simply believe" A crisis of faith is just the thing that makes you really peg down what you believe and why you believe it. If you never go through that, you never really make your faith your own. Thank you. That's a good song. I'm not sure what to think of the analogy of "smelling the color 9" just yet. I've been reading one chapter a day for a few years, starting in Genesis, and now I'm almost through the Bible (the end of I Corinthians). The Bible is surely inspiring, satisfying, insightful, and mysterious. I believe the Bible, but I have a hard time accepting any particular scheme of doctrine. I do not think that I am wiser than the theologians who have interpreted Scripture, but based on the fact of human failability and the fact that sincere and smart theologians disagree so dramatically, I don't really think we can know very much with certainty. I accept the truth and authority of the Bible, but I don't like it when we go beyond the words to form schemes of theology. That's one of the reasons that I'm not so comfortable with the over-use of the "saved" terminology. My church is Dispensational, and although I don't particularly disbelieve Dispensationalism, I don't think human wisdom is qualified to go through all Scripture and decide just how Scripture should be broken up and interpreted. Dave made the point well earlier in this thread that theology is a thing of this world. It will perish, and it is uncertain. You're also taking the verse out of context. What is Paul talking about here? I'm not sure what you're replying to. I apologize to Dave; I would have preferred not to debate this subject, either, since it makes me very uncomfortable. But this serves to demonstrate my point about the uncertainty of theology. My church also doesn't really believe in a final, unpardonable sin. The theological reason that my church would give for rejecting the unpardonable sin is far different from your reason, but that's not my point. When someone reads Mark 3:29, "...he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness..."[/i], without being a theologian and without having been "brainwashed" into accepting an unverifiable scheme of theology that was made by fallible humans, it's hard not to tremble. But more importantly, how did the disciples of Jesus see that verse? They didn't have the entirety of Scripture, and Jesus seems to have condemned the legalistic schemes of theology that existed at the time. (I'm not sure if He entirely condemned theology; maybe someone else has a better idea.) |
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Post by newburydave on May 21, 2012 12:05:21 GMT -5
Theology is useful. The word means "knowledge of God", we all need as much of that as we can glean. The problem comes when Theologians, in their brokenness, try to extrapolate beyond what is clearly revealed. To put that in statistical terms, they try to estimate beyond the reach of the "data Sample" they have (the revealed word).
There is a verse in the Old Testament that says the things that are plainly revealed are for us humans, the things that are hidden or obscure belong to God alone. I agree with the major Theological schools when they stick to the plainly revealed truths, it's when they start to extrapolate from arcane meanings of words and things "written between the lines" (by the way, we all tend to do that. I shudder to think about some of the things I "dug out" of the scriptures" when I as beginning to preach); I thank God that salvation is by grace so He counts the intention for the act and doesn't condemn us for honest mistakes.
However there is a larger issue here. I no longer believe true "Knowledge of God" can be achieved through academic processes . My reason is found in 2 Peter 1:5-8. The NIV doesn't really bring it out, check the NLT or the Amplified for the internal commentary. Or if you have access to eSword (a free program) look at Robertson's Word Picutures (it's a commentary on the meanings in the Greek text).
The free translation that I find after studying the resources it that Faith "Produces" Virtue (Moral Exelence in Living) in us; Virtue "Produces" Knowledge of God in us; Knowledge of God is what "Produces" Self Control (Temperance) in us; and so on. This makes "Knowledge of God" more of a moral/spiritual-power thing, rather than an academic endeavor.
(Power in that the context talks about the promises God has given us so we can escape the corruption in this world through "lusts". Promises = Power; another statement of the Power Jesus said he'd give to those who recieve him "so they may become the sons/daughters of God". ) [Sons and Daughters show the spiritual/moral family resemblence.]
Those who read and speak Greek tell me that the form Peter used here is referencing the musical device of an Arpeggieo, building a chord one note at a time, where each successive note is a fundamental of all the previous.
I've often wondered how people with the most formal theological education are most often the leaders in Apostasy and Heresy. I think this sheds some light on it.
Knowledge of God which is not produced in us by Living in a Morally Excellent way is tainted and likely false. The emphasis on scientific precision in Biblical exigesis which is so in fashion in the church today has always struck me as unbalanced; probably a reaction to the wild fire crowd who makes assertions based on no history or true understanding of Scripture.
Jesus said he'd hidden the truths of the kingdom from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. The thing about little children is that when their father tells them something they believe it and obey. I think this may be an outworking of that principle.
Not to say that education is bad, quite to the contrary it is needful; but education without a life of Moral Excellence (produced by our Faith in Christ and the Indwelling Spirit) is likely to be an evil tree that produces only bad fruit. How else can we explain the divisions that have been caused among devout disciples of Christ over Theological opinions?
These are issues I've pondered, prayed about and studied into for the last 41 years, while fighting the Devil for souls in the service of the King. This is the most Biblically reasonable view of these matters that I've been able to come up with. If you think I'm wrong then reason with me from the Scriptures, please.
Yours for souls; We must Love them into the kingdom, just as Jesus did. Remember, God's Holiness is first 100% unconditional love, everything else derives from that.
Bear His Truth; Be the Light!
SGD
dave
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brianc
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by brianc on Jun 14, 2012 8:45:24 GMT -5
Bainespal, The fact that you aren't blaming anyone for your issues with the church means you're fairly intelligent. The fact that you desire to know truth says a lot about you too. You're right, it's not the church's fault, but they do have something to do with it. The Bible says how would we hear the truth if preachers didn't preach it? So, they do have some bearing on our beliefs. Jesus said it would be better to hang a millstone from your neck and drown yourself in the ocean rather than mislead His little children. The church has a big part in misleading or leading people. But ultimately, it is our responsibility to seek truth, and you understand that. That's the best foundation with which to start. SalvationOver the years, I have become less and less comfortable with referring to being "saved." This is due to my experience; I was raised in an Evangelical family; I was "saved" when I was six. Only, I never really believed that I was saved when I said that prayer when I was six. Even when I was about 10, I would pick up tracts at my church and bring them home to say the prayers at the end of the tracts, fearing that I might not have said the right prayer. I kept thinking that if I just said prayed to receive Christ one more time, then I could put it to rest once-and-for all that I was really saved. But none of those prayers "worked" for me; there was no burst of light, or of assurance. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God -- is God incarnate -- that He sacrificed His own life and rose from the dead. And I don't see that any particular commitment or affirmation that I can utter or confess will ever make the Atonement more real or applicable to me. I know longer fear hell like I used to, partly because I've come to see that the desire to escape hell is actually selfish. I deserve hell, but Jesus paid it. All I can do is enact my faith in the present, and if the perfectly Just Judge sends me to hell, then that is right and good. I have some questions that are good to ask yourself in regard to salvation. 1. Did Jesus die for our sins so that we must now "be a good person" and "save ourselves" through our actions? Or was Jesus' sacrifice on the cross the only thing that was needed to cover all of our sins provided we accept His sacrifice and forgiveness? Personally, I believe He did the job 100% and there is no need for us to try to earn the rest of our salvation, because that degrades His sacrifice. Romans 8 says that nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus. In John 5:24, Jesus says that the second we believe, we have eternal life, are removed from judgment and brought into life. If it is "eternal" life and yet we can lose it, then it was never eternal to begin with, and Jesus is a liar. Paul says that we are 2. Do I have to overcome sin or does Jesus? I've found that many people think Jesus died to save them, but here on earth, it's not our responsibility to stop sinning. This is what causes most Christians to doubt their salvation, because they feel shameful. I never truly doubted my salvation, but I did contemplate it from time to time when I had this mindset of my responsibility of not sinning. Last year, after 15 years of struggling with an addiction to pornography (which was loaded with shame), I discovered what I had been missing the entire time. It's not only not my responsibility not to sin, but I also am incapable of not sinning. That's Jesus' job completely. I was trying to do it instead of simply being willing for Him to do it for me. And so now, I don't have a problem with addiction anymore. Recovery (12 Step) showed me that, and it was one of the most important things I've learned in my life. I highly recommend Recovery for absolutely everyone. I believe Recovery functions more like the First-Century Church than our churches do today, oddly enough, and it's far more spiritually fulfilling. [/li][li] The BibleI believe that the Bible is completely accurate and authoritative for Christians. I'm not so sure about the Bible being the Word of God, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. I can't reconcile the Bible and Christ having the same title without being one in essence. If the Bible really is the Word of God, I think it would have to be co-equal with God in some way. And that leads to idolatry, because ultimately the Bible is not God; it is an inanimate object. [/quote] The Bible says all scripture is God breathed and Holy Spirit inspired. God has the ability to put in the Bible whatever He wants, and He has, in my opinion. Therefore, I believe it is His word. Now, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one, and therefore, if the Holy Spirit inspired all scripture, then scripture would be an extension of Jesus (the Word). However, like you said, idolatry is a problem. It's not a problem for the Bible, it's a problem for people. Everything can be used for good or for bad. The Bible is no exception, nor is God. If you take away the Bible completely, people will still use God as a reason to be bad. They'll create religions around Him, but they'll be man-made religions. The Pharisees are a prime example of mankind taking the good things of God and using them for their own selfish purposes. Religion always tends that way, because of mankind's sin and free will. The Bible is to simply teach us who God is to a certain extent so that we can seek Him personally in a relationship. [/li][li] Formal ReligionOne of the things that Evangelicals I have known in my life disagree with the most is the status of non-Evangelical orthodox Christians, i.e., the Catholics (and other groups). There is no question in my mind that Evangelicalism is not inherently better or worse than formal Orthodoxy. There must certainly Catholics who are trying to earn their own salvation by their own merit through the sacraments. There are also Evangelicals who think they're going to heaven because they said the prayer. I believe there are also many Catholics whose perform the sacraments as expressions of deep faith in the Savior and His mercy, even though they've never been "saved." And there are Evangelicals for whom the prayer really was an awakening of true faith. [/quote] Is your problem with the prayer itself? Or is it with how one acquires salvation? Or is it strictly with the fact that Evangelicals teach you just need to say a prayer? The fact that the Bible never says you need to say a prayer should give you the answer. It's a heart matter. Either a person believes or they don't--it's really that simple. My mother never had some grand experience like I did, where God suddenly removed all her sin and she felt like a million bucks, like someone had turned the lights on in the dark world for the first time. And yet she knows for certain God exists and Jesus died for her sins and she is devoted to Him. She never said some prayer to achieve that. She simply believed, just like I simply believed. My story is interesting, in that I did not say a prayer and wasn't even looking for God when I was saved. I believed God existed already, but I was having a hard time for the first time in life. I was depressed for the first time at age 16 and I was bored one night. I overheard my uncle ask my mom, "Can you figure out what this verse means?" Anything was better than what I was doing, so I went and asked if I could see the verse. All I needed to know to figure out the verse was who the saints were. The verse was nothing special, and was very simple. I asked my uncle who the saints were and he said the saints are us. Instantly, God saved me. I didn't ask for it. It just happened and I immediately accepted it. I think God just knew I'd accept it and gave it to me. I felt all my sin, shame and guilt fall off of me and amazing love flood through me. It was like someone had turned on the lights to the world for the first time and I finally understood everything FAR better than I did before. It was amazing. That feeling of love and peace lasted for nearly two years before fading off due to me continuing in some of my sins. That night, I didn't know why, but I needed to confess everything I'd done wrong to my mom, and I did. I just had to get it out for some reason. I told all my friends about times I'd done them wrong and apologized. I just knew what to do for some reason. Had I known that I needed to let Jesus overcome the sins I kept doing back then, I would've probably had a much different road (a less dramatic one). But because of my struggles, I learned a lot and can relate to a lot more people. I was in a church at the time I suddenly realized was off-base, so I pulled my family out of it and we went elsewhere. I understood at that time that I would never again join a denomination, but rather, I would simply attend them and learn. No need to lock myself into a belief structure when they could be wrong. Better to go to God and let Him teach me. Stories and writers tend to have a way of making things more enjoyable. That appeals to our selfish side. We always want things that are more alluring, more appeasing to our desires. In my opinion, I think it's dangerous to take anyone's opinion on what they believe is truth. Everyone must seek it out for themselves through relationship with God. To seek it through man is us wanting the easy way out. Relationship takes self-discipline and a lot of dedication. Mankind much prefers a religion with some rules to follow for acceptance. We can "earn" it that way, and that's gratifying to our egos. God's not about ego, though. He's about humbleness. He just wants a relationship with us. The more we get rid of selfishness from our hearts, the more room God has to come in and fill it. The book I recommend most to absolutely any and every Christian is The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence. Though, you'll want to make sure you get the version with the Eulogy, Letters, Conversations, Maxims and Life of Brother Lawrence. That is the best version with the most information. Excellent book--it will change the way you approach God. [/list] [/quote] One can find all the truth they want in the Bible, but they can never find relationship with God. The Bible is a tool from the source, not the actual source, so it can't ever achieve the relationship that fulfills a person. One of my biggest problems has always been substituting knowledge for relationship (which is a very religious thing to do). I should have been more spiritual in my endeavors rather than religious. Pride likes to build knowledge--humbleness likes to build relationship. One cannot follow a book--one must follow the writer of that book. Religion follows a book and makes it say what they want it to say, often times. It's smarter to go to the source, which is what it seems like you're wanting to do, or are doing. More people need religion challenged, in my opinion. People are moving away from churches nowadays and into more small community worship like small, home Bible studies and home churches. Sure, this can go very wrong, but it can go very right, too, if people really look into how the First-Century Church operated. It's quick the opposite of how our churches today operate, by-in-large. Small Bible studies have always provided far more fulfillment for me than any church service every has. And why shouldn't they, since that is far more similar to how the original church did it? - Brian |
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brianc
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by brianc on Jun 14, 2012 9:06:46 GMT -5
I think if I have a beef with modern evangelicalism, it's that it has so little theology--most of it has been replaced by methodology. I think my problem is that Evangelicalism often seems to ignore the inner human struggle. We're given doctrine that we have to accept on authority. At the best of times, Evangelical teaching can indeed be relevant to the human condition. However, I think as rule, Evangelicalism is too practical. You pegged it right there--it doesn't truly address the inner struggle. That's what Recovery does and what home churches or Bible studies do, which is why I enjoy them so much. Home churches and Bible studies can be way off base, though, doing things just like a regular church, but at least there is more personal interaction usually. We aren't fulfilled in a modern church for a couple of reasons. 1. The pastor is often trying to "look the part", as are the members. No one wants to expose their dark underbelly of sin. Rather, they put forward this mask of righteousness so they "look the part". And in doing so, they are pridefully pulling themselves away from relationship with God. That's a HUGE problem. In a home church or Recovery setting, it's much easier to address personal issues with the group who accept you no matter what. Everyone can share their experiences and struggles and how God overcomes them. They can speak into each others' lives as well as God prompts them to do so. That's so incredibly key to community among believers and yet we don't get that in modern churches, usually. 2. We are passive watchers rather than active doers. We sit in pews and listen to a message which comes from the pastor's beliefs, which come from the denomination's beliefs, and we're supposed to accept it as truth rather than search out truth for ourselves. People go to their pastor and ask questions and get answers. That's gratifying, but not fulfilling. If a person must ask God an answer, they may not get an answer at all, or may not for years...so why bother? (that's often their attitude) They don't have to go to church all week, but relationship with God would require daily effort. Church is appealing in the easy, gratifying sense, but it's not inwardly fulfilling like relationship with God is. Home churches, and Recovery, if done correctly, require that everyone plays a part, everyone helps each other, everyone shares their own struggles and everyone lets God use them to speak into the lives of others with the gifts He's given each person. Active participation--being used by God. That's quite the opposite of modern church structure, which, by the way, comes from the Pagan temple structure (which is why it's not fulfilling). The only thing that truly matters is that you believe and accept Jesus. You sound as if you've truly done that. It's cake from there on out. It sounds like you're trying to examine the cake now rather than eat it. LOL That quick fade is a product of sin/shame, actually. That's why I recommend Recovery to absolutely anyone, even if they believe they don't have addictions. Control, itself, is always the underlying addiction that spawns all the other addictions. If no addictions are visible, the control is always still there--our attempt to control our lives apart from allowing God to control them. Recovery teaches the biblical principles that lead a person to conquering sin. And it provides a community of friends with a place they can come and share their struggles and help one another actively. Sin/selfishness is always the wall that builds between God's assurance, love, peace, and joy, causing it to feel far dampened or non-existent. The only way I was able to climb out of the shame was to seek God more diligently and then get into Recovery eventually. I recommend it at a church, because you get more Christians in that environment. I can only personally recommend the Hunger for Healing version called Celebrate Recovery. If done properly, that's a great version of Recovery (12 Step). - Brian |
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