brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 14, 2012 9:19:46 GMT -5
This day I was caught up in something and by quitting time I was convinced I'd grieved away the Holy Ghost and had committed the unpardonable sin. I also once believed that I had committed the unpardonable sin. For a few days, I was completely convinced that I was going to hell. I believed I was going to hell with as much certainty as I ever believed anything, I think. There was no definitive end to that experience; my parents and pastors tried to convince me that I couldn't possibly have committed the unpardonable sin, and it just got old. I don't mean to start the theological debate about that topic, either, I'm just saying that I know the experience. Not debate, but I'll throw out the discussion real quick. The unpardonable sin can only be the choice not to accept forgiveness, plain and simple. How can a person be forgiven if they refuse forgiveness? So, of course that's unpardonable, because a person isn't accepting the pardon. But at any time in life, the person can accept forgiveness and be saved. It's not as frightening as some churches tend to make it sound. It's just a logical expression of free will and the structure God has setup. If you are looking for some magical feeling to know you have the Holy Spirit inside of you, then good luck with that. lol There's a lot of fantastical stuff out there that is misunderstood, in my opinion. And I think the enemy uses it to make others feel bad or less important or less "righteous". It's important to understand that Jesus never spoke of some fantastical special feeling we're all supposed to have all the time as Christians. He didn't even say we'd have it at the moment of belief. Do you know why? Because some people have lived fairly pure lives, and when their sins and shame are erased at the moment of salvation, it doesn't make nearly as huge an impact on them. I, on the other hand, had plenty of sins and shame built up, so when I was born again at age 16, I went from rock bottom to cloud nine in a split second and it felt awesome! But I've noticed that with children, especially if they aren't hardly corrupted yet, the experience is rarely this amazing change inside of them. And I believe it's for that exact reason--they're not horribly corrupted enough yet to feel this massive change. I think that's why my mom can't pinpoint when she became saved, because it was very early on. She tells me of one event early on that might have been the event of her salvation, but isn't sure. And so she has this similar struggle you have, from time to time. I never have that struggle, because at age 16, I knew for certain, because the experience was so drastically life altering. Don't gauge your experience from other people's experience or you'll be confused like you are now. Keep in mind, it's never a good idea to compare your inside to other people's outsides. You only see the outside of others, and you may think, "Well, they've got it all together and they're a good person and they seem like a good Christian. Why am I not that way?" But the truth is, they have all kinds of their own struggles--you just don't see them. That's the kind of environment modern churches create, in my opinion--lots of shame for everyone comparing their inside to everyone else's outside. That's a key truth. The Bible is not God--God is God, and there is no substitute. We can try to substitute knowledge and the Bible for God, which religion often does, but relationship with God is the only place to actually find truth and fulfillment. It's like Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:2 - "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." Religion often misses that. I make blanket statements, but understand that I don't necessarily believe these things about all churches. I'd say I believe them about the majority of churches, though. - Brian |
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brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 14, 2012 9:31:40 GMT -5
I apologize to Dave; I would have preferred not to debate this subject, either, since it makes me very uncomfortable. But this serves to demonstrate my point about the uncertainty of theology. My church also doesn't really believe in a final, unpardonable sin. The theological reason that my church would give for rejecting the unpardonable sin is far different from your reason, but that's not my point. When someone reads Mark 3:29, "...he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness..."[/i], without being a theologian and without having been "brainwashed" into accepting an unverifiable scheme of theology that was made by fallible humans, it's hard not to tremble. But more importantly, how did the disciples of Jesus see that verse? They didn't have the entirety of Scripture, and Jesus seems to have condemned the legalistic schemes of theology that existed at the time. (I'm not sure if He entirely condemned theology; maybe someone else has a better idea.) [/quote] I never saw Jesus condemn "theology". What I saw Him condemn was religion and man's wisdom. Jesus wasn't bringing a religion to the world. He was bringing a complete way of life which was opposed to the worldly way of life. He was bringing a relationship. He killed sin, because it was what was separating us from God. Once that was done, we had free access to God, provided we allowed Him to remove our sins. There's nothing wrong with theology, but as Dave said, it is uncertain in most cases. What's important is not to put our worth or acceptance in theology, but rather place them in Jesus and our relationship with Him. That's all that really matters. It's easy to refute the reference to who's going to the Lake of Fire by reading one more chapter forward of that verse where lots of people are tossed into it. But that's all very figurative, and we haven't a clue what it's truly talking about. Religion loves to set in stone a believe on something and dole it out to people as truth, but the truth is that we can't know many things for certain. Paul said it best when he said to run the race to win the prize, and that this is the best way to assure yourself of your salvation. He knew people had this same struggle as you have. He knew that lots of things are uncertain, and the best way to combat that uncertainty of salvation is to put everything you have into relationship with God and following His guidance to help others. If you want to get outside of yourself, help other people through charity (like personally serving at homeless shelters or building homes for the poor with Habitat for Humanity, etc.). Selflessly giving if a very quick way to start killing off selfishness inside, which frees up more room in your heart for God to take up residence. The less self there is inside, the more God will be there, and His Presence will grow much stronger if that's the case. - Brian |
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Post by Bainespal on Jun 14, 2012 19:16:36 GMT -5
Because some people have lived fairly pure lives, and when their sins and shame are erased at the moment of salvation, it doesn't make nearly as huge an impact on them. Only if "fairly pure" is understood from the human perspective. No one's life is pure, and the secret sins of the heart and mind might be just as bad as the big external sins that are obvious. Yes, I've been told that before, and I agree. But it's hard not to envy people who know for certain that God interceded in the course of their lives. I've heard adult converts say the wished they'd been saved (I'll refrain from putting that word in quotes this time out of respect) as children so they could have had longer to live for Christ. I guess we all wish for what we don't have. It comes down to not thinking that someone else's gift is better than your own, I suppose. I find it ironic that I try to take a more optimistic view of the outward church than you do, when I clearly have such a pessimistic view of the inward Christian experience.  But I think that in most churches God can truly be found, even in those with horrible problems. Some churches are too weak in the faith and compromising in belief. Others are too arrogant about their ability to dictate truth to the people. But in both kinds of flawed churches, people are assembling in Jesus' name, standing in the tradition of everyone who has ever trusted in God instead of in themselves. |
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Post by newburydave on Jun 14, 2012 22:54:51 GMT -5
I think that Martin Luther's point about the "Visible Church" containing the "True Church" but not all in the "Visible Church" are members of the "True Church" is an important point to consider.
Of the ten virgins (those with a testimony of being Christ followers) only five made it into the marriage supper of the lamb.
Jesus said many are called and only a few are the chosen (elect).
Jesus' pictures of the judgement showed many who come to Him claiming to have been His servants but He rejects them into everlasting fire because they offered Him religious doctrines, or works but were not genuine by His standards of practical righteousness.
And Jesus did tell Peter that Peter only knew that Jesus was the Christ because of the inward witness given him by the Father's revelation.
The inward witness has too many citations in Scripture to be dismissed as some spurious, subjective phenomena. The alternative to this inward witness is to adopt some kind of contract based salvation by logical deduction, which is just another form of works righteousness.
Salvation is the work of God in us from Awakening, Drawing, Conviction for sin, Repentance and Faith; to the Witness of our Sonship/Daughterhood. He gives us all of these things when He wills to do it, not when we command Him to give them to us by reciting a religious ritual or formula. He is the Actor, we are the recipients.
The inner witness is something that we all need in order to be assured of our acceptance by God. The fact that it may be different depending on the person is irrelevant. The nature of the witness is that it enables our faith to leap up, seize hold of Jesus as our sufficient atonement and enable the Holy Ghost to come into our hearts and do his work of redemption and sanctification in us.
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brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 15, 2012 7:21:04 GMT -5
Because some people have lived fairly pure lives, and when their sins and shame are erased at the moment of salvation, it doesn't make nearly as huge an impact on them. Only if "fairly pure" is understood from the human perspective. No one's life is pure, and the secret sins of the heart and mind might be just as bad as the big external sins that are obvious. Fairly pure implies not completely pure.  I don't wish for anything I don't have or didn't get in the past. I know full well that I would not be who I am today if not for my past mistakes, and as a result, would not be able to do the things God has planned out for me ahead of time. For me to wish for something other than what I have would be kind of counter productive, because God said He makes all things work together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. And the fact that God says it's His will that everyone repent and come to a knowledge of Him, that tells me He has orchestrated everything in the absolute best way possible to get the most people saved (and even possibly to get all people saved, but that's another discussion altogether). So, in my opinion, God has everyone on the best possible path for their life and everyone else's lives around them. Anything altered from this course would be less perfect than the current course/plan God has worked out. I know, at any given time, I am right where God wants me to be and knew I would be, and I'm good with that...even when I'm doing stupid things. lol I agree that God can be found in any church, but then again, He can be found anywhere. In fact, Romans 1 says everyone knows there is a God when they see creation, and so no one is without excuse. Even the most staunch Atheist knows, deep down, that there is a God. He's just choosing to deny it, because something in his past happened that tainted his view of God and he didn't like it, so he's in rebellion. This is why I don't debate Atheists anymore. I'll discuss things with them, but definitely won't debate. They can ask me things if they're interested, but to convince someone of something they don't want to believe is probably the most futile of all endeavors, in my opinion. lol I have a very optimistic outlook on the eternal destiny of everyone, actually. Just because I point out the flaws in how things are done doesn't mean I have a pessimistic view. That's just me pointing out some problems. I think God finds a person wherever they are, no matter the church of the place. He always has a way and will always try to draw a person to Him. Jesus said He came to pay for our sins and draw all people to Him. I believe He does so. Whether they accept Him or not, I don't know, but He does attempt to draw them all to Him. I, personally, get the idea that God is so incredibly smart that, even though we have free will, He has a way to get everyone to accept Him one way or another, in this age or the next. I don't know that for sure, obviously, and so I don't hold it as a doctrine of mine...but I do think it's very possible. God is full of wisdom and tricks up His sleeve. lol He says all things are possible for Him, and nothing is too hard for Him--I believe that is true. Even though you fret over issues of doctrines, you are far closer to truth than many others. - Brian |
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Bethany J.
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Post by Bethany J. on Jun 15, 2012 21:58:25 GMT -5
Bainespal, Normally I would be too intimidated by a deep theological discussion to dare share my own thoughts. But I can relate so well to your first point about praying the prayer over and over again... So I felt moved to share my musings. I guess, to clarify where I'm coming from, I should note that I wouldn't consider myself Evangelical. I might be technically Evangelical, depending on the precise, nit-picky definition of the term, but I would primarily consider myself to be a "Reformed" Christian wh holds to Reformed theology. (I grew up in an Evangelical church, but my family moved on to a Reformed congregation when I was a teen.) So I guess I would consider myself "disillusioned" with Evangelicalism as well. Salvation and "The Prayer"I kept thinking that if I just said prayed to receive Christ one more time, then I could put it to rest once-and-for all that I was really saved. I did something similar as a child. At 9 or 10 years old, I "prayed the prayer" again because I was concerned that the first time I didn't really understand what I was doing (I was only 3). Looking back on that second prayer, I don't believe it was "necessary". After all, it's not our prayer which saves us; it's God's work in our heart. He can work slowly and gradually to bring us to Him, or He can work in a flash...and most of the time for those of us who grew up within the church, it's the former. Whether I earnestly believed in Christ as my Savior at 3 years old is doubtful. I probably just did it because I'm naturally a people-pleaser and I knew that was what the adults in my life wanted me to do. But I don't believe that moment of prayer (or the later one) is when I was definitively "saved". I believe that God has chosen beforehand those who He will call (Ephesians 1:3-5). Based on my understanding of that passage, I was saved before I was even born. I was saved before I even existed! The important thing is that (by His grace) I believe I am a great sinner, and Christ is a great Savior. The precise moment in time when I came to believe this is unimportant in the grand scheme of things, and certainly says nothing about whether I have true faith. I do believe affirmations of one's faith are important (Romans 10:10), but they are important throughout one's walk of faith, not just in the beginning. The Bible and Christ as the "Word of God"I think this is mainly an issue of semantics. (I like what Kessie said, that, "The Bible is actually God's words written down, and his interactions with mankind. It is literally God's word, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Whereas Jesus was the Word made flesh. He was like the Bible, only walking and talking." She said what I was going to try to say, except better. Formal ReligionI feel I can't adequately address your questions in this category, because I'm not sure what it is you're asking. If you have been told in the past that one must be an Evangelical Christian and "say the prayer" to be saved, I would respond that I don't believe this is the case at all. I am sure there are Roman Catholics who are saved, and Evangelicals, and Baptists, and Reformed Christians, and Anglicans like C.S. Lewis, etc. But there are also those in every category who are not. And again, I don't believe it is about that first prayer we pray (if we can even remember it) - it is whether we understand our need for Christ and the power of His saving blood. I don't think this negates the need for organized, formal religion, though. There are better and worse ways to understand the Bible, true and untrue understandings of who God is, etc. As St. Augustine said, "All truth is God's truth," and we should be actively seeking the truest understanding of the Bible that we can. Some denominations/churches are closer to truth than others. I hope I have been able to speak to some of your wonderings. I will pray for you as you work through these questions! In Christ's love, Bethany |
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brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 16, 2012 8:51:46 GMT -5
I believe that God has chosen beforehand those who He will call (Ephesians 1:3-5). Based on my understanding of that passage, I was saved before I was even born. I was saved before I even existed! The important thing is that (by His grace) I believe I am a great sinner, and Christ is a great Savior. The precise moment in time when I came to believe this is unimportant in the grand scheme of things, and certainly says nothing about whether I have true faith. I do believe affirmations of one's faith are important (Romans 10:10), but they are important throughout one's walk of faith, not just in the beginning. To say that you were saved before you were born would be to deny what Jesus said about you having to be "born again" to be saved, or "born of the spirit". Now, if you just mean this in the sense that you were chosen before you were born, then sure, but you'd have to state it as, "Before I was born, God was going to save me at some point in my life." Personally, I don't even think it's about whether we understand the power of His saving blood. I wasn't even looking for God when I was saved. I didn't even know I'd been born again when it was thrust upon me. God simply knew I would accept it, and therefore gave it to me at exactly the right time. Pretty simple. It doesn't always happen that clearly with people, though, I've noticed. I was able to identify it because I had plenty of sin and shame dragging me down at age 16. I was depressed. And when God saved me, I went from rock bottom to cloud nine in a split second and stayed there for quite some time. As a kid, I don't think we're corrupted enough yet to see the change in our hearts drastically like we are when we are saved at an older age and have lived a more corrupt life that has built up shame inside to weigh us down. That's just my two cents, though. It almost sounded like you believe in predestination, though that's hard to pinpoint in how you described it. Some scriptures kind of look that way, but at the same time, God can't infringe upon the free will He gave us in Genesis 1:26-28. And if He is the only One who chooses, completely apart from our free will, then He is an awful, hateful God to send others either into an eternal hell or to destroy them completely (who knows what exactly happens after death?). Scripturally, one can make the Bible say just about anything they want it to say, but to make it all agree is another thing entirely. If we're given free will, then God cannot choose for us. I think the key is that God says He knows our hearts, and knows them better than we do. And that is how He can interact in our affairs and know what decisions we will make, which is how He knows the future and can alter it to His purpose. Therefore, God would not choose someone who will reject Him. He would only choose those who He knows will accept Him, which requires no infringing upon our free will whatsoever. God won't break His own laws. And to think that we are somehow special because we were chosen is never a good idea (not that people think that, of course, though I'm sure some do). Calvin wrote a 500 page book about the different ways to torture those whom were not chosen by God. The entire book is not about torture, but large sections of it are. It's pretty disturbing to place other human lives under our own because we are supposed "chosen". That doctrine can be very destructive and lead people away from witnessing to others. That's just an observation, though. Not every Calvinist thinks like that, obviously. Possibly not many. - Brian |
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Bethany J.
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Post by Bethany J. on Jun 16, 2012 14:35:54 GMT -5
To say that you were saved before you were born would be to deny what Jesus said about you having to be "born again"; to be saved, or "born of the spirit". Now, if you just mean this in the sense that you were chosen before you were born, then sure, but you'd have to state it as, "Before I was born, God was going to save me at some point in my life." Yes, this is what I meant. Sorry for any confusion! I believe God's salvation is so sure and trustworthy that - for all intents and purposes, from God's point of view - I have been saved since before I was born. Now, obviously, from our human standpoint (at least for many of us) there is a point where we can say, "THERE is when I became born again," but I think from God's point of view, we were always His children, because He had chosen us. (He IS beyond space and time and all that.) Do you mean to say, then, that you do not believe in original sin? Personally I believe we are corrupted since conception, but...this is really beyond the scope of Bainespal's original post, so perhaps we shouldn't go there... Woah, lots to respond to here! Firstly, let me say that I unashamedly DO believe in predestination. ;D (I am a 5-point Calvinist...eeks!...am I in the minority here? Should I hide? ) I believe that we all deserve God's judgment, but in His great mercy He chooses to save the chosen ones He has called to be His own. I do not think this makes Him awful or hateful; He is a holy God and cannot abide with our disgusting, destructive sin, so it would be perfectly just and right for him to destroy us all without mercy. He has chosen instead to show His amazing grace through Christ. (I am well aware there is a HUGE debate here waiting to be unleashed, but I will leave it at that for now.) I also believe in a real, eternal Hell, because I think the Bible is clear on that reality: Revelation 20:15, Matthew 10:48, and many other passages come to mind. But if God saved me because He "knew" I would accept Him, does that not in some way mean that I "earned" salvation by just being who I am? In which case, wouldn't that mean I WAS "special" - more special than the person next to me who didn't accept God? Personally (believing in total depravity and all), I believe there is *nothing* special about me to merit my salvation - it was ALL God's grace. He didn't know I would choose Him. In fact, He knows that if I was left to myself, I would never choose Him! I have a hard time understanding the argument that predestination destroys our free will. When we become Christians, it is not because God is twisting our arms behind our backs (at least, not in my experience...). He works through circumstances in our lives to draw us to Himself. He is not waiting with baited breath, wringing his hands and hoping little Johnny will grow up to love Him. He KNOWS, because He has called Johnny to be His own, and He *will* accomplish that saving work in Johnny's life. He is an all-powerful God! I don't think that destroys Johnny's free will in the least. What! I was unaware that there was even such a idea! Yikes. I don't know any Calvinists who feel this way. As I mentioned before, I am a Calvinist myself - but how should I, from my mortal, human standpoint, arrogantly presume to know who God has elected? I believe that in most cases God works through His church and His people to bring new believers to Himself. And Christ has commanded us to spread His Gospel throughout the world. We are instrumental in God's work to save His people! Now, if I was saved because God saw something admirable in me (like a propensity to accept Him!), then I *would* be special, and there might be a reason for me to feel superior to other human beings. But I believe we are all saved by His mercy alone and not our own merit, so no Christian can consider himself better than others. And because we simply don't know who else God has elected, we must assume that ALL unbelievers around us have the potential to be saved, because they all need Christ. If we are not passionate to see other sinners brought to Him, we need to seriously examine our own faith! In Christ's love, Bethany |
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brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 16, 2012 14:58:21 GMT -5
Yes, I believe in original sin. Doesn't mean that a person has built up shame at birth, though. We can only build shame on our own through doing evil. As we build it, it drags us down spiritually and mentally. As children, we typically don't have all of that shame built up. When we get into our teenage years, well, then we tend to be a little more unruly and build up shame. That's what I mant.
As for Hell, ther is a big debate on it. Because of the original Hebrew and Greek, and because of the figurative language used to describe hell, it is difficult to tel what happens after death. Does a person burn up immediately? Does he burn forever? Can God save a person out of Hell since it appears that Jesus may have saved the people in Hell from before the flood according to a verse in James? Who knows? The Bible is not very clear on the subject.
As for predestination, we may have to start a thread on it. I doubt anyone would care that you're a Calvinist if they're not. I like discussing it, but I won't debate it. I have no desire to convince someone else I'm right or they're wrong. Who am I to say I'm right? I don't mind discussing, though.
If we have no choice in the matter of our salvation, then God has broken His law of free will grom Genesis 1:26-28. Also, this renders the meaning of life useless. There is no point to life if we have no choice, because it means God created us to send most people to a horrible death and pick some to spend eternity with Him. The fact is that Paul said that because we cannot know for sure if we are saved, that we must run the race as if to win the prize. Why do that if it's out of our hands? Why is faith required for salvation if it's out of our hands? So much of the Bible doesn't make sense if God solely chooses.
It does not make us special if we choose Him. It simply means we realized that we need Him. That's all. That doesn't make us special in any way. In fact, it makes us admit we are not special, and that we need God.
- Brian
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Bethany J.
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Post by Bethany J. on Jun 19, 2012 15:22:14 GMT -5
Brian, It is definitely true that the Bible is a little bit hazy about details of Hell, but I think it is clear from Scriptures that such a place exists. I think it is also safe to assume from various texts that those who go to Hell burn there forever. Although I know the Bible often employs figurative language, unless there is great evidence that the passage is metaphorical, I personally prefer to assume God is being direct rather than assuming He is being figurative...safer that way. Oh, I was mostly kidding when I suggested I might have to hide because I'm a Calvinist! I am not sure how Gen. 1:26-28 describes a "law of free will". I feel like that stretches the text a little. I'm not interested in debating either, though, especially since this is out of context of the topic anyway. I will only say that, believing as I do that no one can come to God on their own because we are blinded by sin, God must renew our hearts if we are to be saved. Therefore, whether we have free will or not, it really is God who did *everything* in the end. And that is the important part! And mostly that is what I was getting at. Blessings! Bethany |
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brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 19, 2012 15:45:02 GMT -5
Brian, It is definitely true that the Bible is a little bit hazy about details of Hell, but I think it is clear from Scriptures that such a place exists. I think it is also safe to assume from various texts that those who go to Hell burn there forever. Although I know the Bible often employs figurative language, unless there is great evidence that the passage is metaphorical, I personally prefer to assume God is being direct rather than assuming He is being figurative...safer that way. Well, we know hell is being figurative conveyed to us, because a figurative word is being used. In the Old Testament, the word Gehenna is used, which is a place outside of Jerusalem where the people burned their trash. The fires there never went out. It was always burning. Animals would come to the edge of the heap and eat ruined food, and they would fight for it too. This is why it is said to have weeping and gnashing of teeth in this "Gehenna" place, because that's what it sounded like with the animals tearing away at each other. The New Testament often uses Hades, which is the Greek word for the underworld. This is also a figurative term. I do believe there is a placed called Hell, but the Bible tends to describe it as more of a holding tank. In the end, Revelation says that Hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Just like the Gehenna fire never burns out, the Lake of Fire is described as burning forever. The worms Jesus talks about never dying are those of the Gehenna fire when He's metaphorically describing a hell-type place. But there is a passage in the Old Testament that says a person simply is destroyed in Hell. What does that mean? They burn up immediately and cease to exist? It doesn't imply they burn forever, does it? So, which is correct? I have no clue. If God were clear on it, we wouldn't have these discussions about the subject. lol I don't think He's at all clear about it in any way, shape or form, because I don't think He wanted us to focus on it. I don't think it's important. I think what's important is to seek Him, and so we see that evidenced in the lack of details about Hell. I'm not saying you're wrong in your belief about Hell, but I am saying that you, nor I, can know for sure what really lies beyond this life for those who are unsaved. I agree that God has done everything. He is the One who draws us to Him, but ultimately, He has chosen, due to giving us free will, not to infringe upon our free will, so He cannot force us to do anything we don't want to do. Jonah is a prime example of this. Never did God possess Jonah and make him do anything. Instead, God made Jonah's life miserable till he did what God asked Him to do. With the unsaved, I tend to think God makes their life miserable till they come to a point where they're humble and choose to accept Him. Some, though, have such a hate for Him, they simply will never give in in this life. Genesis 1:26-28 says God gave mankind dominion over the earth and everything on it. Dominion is authority and sovereignty if you look up its Hebrew definition in context. We are on earth, and so if we rule earth, then we are our ultimate authority here and God cannot infringe upon that. That's free will. Free will is required, actually. Without free well, we have no way to love. Love is not a feeling. It's a choice. We must choose to love others or choose not to love them. If we choose to love someone, whether we realize it or not, it is a choice. And that choice can cause a feeling of joy and peace inside, which is often called a feeling of "love". That's a misuse of the word love, though. It's not a feeling--it's an action. That's why the King James defines it as Charity often, rather than love. One doesn't feel charity--they do it by choice. If we had no ability to choose to love, then we would all be robots, and God would be controlling us, more or less. In my personal opinion, a God who creates billions of people just to send a majority of them to burn in hell forever is an evil, hateful, angry God whom I don't wish to be close to. If I were to serve that God, I would do so at a distance, just because He's God, and for no other reason. That's not a guy I want to hang out with. That's a guy who scares the crap out of me and has no true care for me or the rest of humanity. That's a guy that has serious issues. I want to stay away from that God. Again...that's just my perception (and the perception of many non-Calvinists). But hey, it doesn't matter either way. Salvation is salvation, regardless of how we believe we come by it. It's a fun discussion, but like you said, it's off-topic here. I don't mind starting that topic, because it is fun to discuss. Enjoyed the discussion. - Brian |
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This Baron of Mora
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Post by This Baron of Mora on Jun 23, 2012 16:58:40 GMT -5
Well I suppose I am sort of Evangelical since I go to a Assemblies of God Church, however I grew up originally in a Methodist Church until my family decided to switch since my parents didn't like one of the pastors. However denomination-wise I am not since I could just as easily walk in to a Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, etc. church. Like you Bainespal I consider Tolkien and Lewis extremely influential on me. I don't know how anyone can call Lewis Evangelical since he was an Anglican (though an Anglo-Catholic at that), however he (and I) believe in "Mere Christianity" (noting that he got that idea from Chesterton) the principles that make up all denominations. I advise you to look at Mere Christianity (not necessarily the book as I haven't actually read it) instead of what one denomination says to find your answers, look at your own style (we won't mention mine), and of course look to God. I prefer to think that all denominations have good values and I can mend them to what works for me (which is why I merely want to go to a good church, not necessarily a particular denomination's) again I will go to Lewis who though a devote Anglican still went to Orthodox, Catholic, etc. services. To this I say like Bainespal said at the start, so as he said to Lewis (which help Lewis convert), myths are not lies, they point to the myth that is true, when Jesus died a myth for the first time in history became true. So all the Bible is myths and most of all legends that are true (especially some of the old testament). And to this movement away from the church I say perhaps that Catholic church was partially right in saying that the average man can't understand scripture (but I still think most people can). It shall (or should) be noted that my church (Timberline Church if anyone is wondering) is probably not a "traditional Assemblies of God church" if such things exist. Our pastors talk of all denominations as equals (well they don't actually talk about it much, but you can tell) and they don't think they are in anyway superior to the others. Our sermons are full of jokes (especially when are British pastor Jeff Lucas is preaching, he gets into all sorts of situations with himself). We also have Richard Foth (my favorite) who used to work with senators, etc. in Washington D.C. and brings a more traditional atmosphere to our church (part of the reason I like more traditional churches like the methodists, anglicans). I can recall once someone said that if they had known Timberline was a Assemblies of God Church they would not have come, but now that they are here they love it for itself (I'm paraphrasing here). I can thank them for a wonderful church experience. Side Note: If anyone has trouble with churches in there area I would recommend, that though they are not near the same as being there (which I think extremely important) to at least listen to online sermons (Timberline does have them available, and I listened to several when I can't make it to church). timberline.sermon.tv/ There are a lot so choose an interesting title and speaker to start out. |
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But I think that in most churches God can truly be found, even in those with horrible problems. Some churches are too weak in the faith and compromising in belief. Others are too arrogant about their ability to dictate truth to the people. But in both kinds of flawed churches, people are assembling in Jesus' name, standing in the tradition of everyone who has ever trusted in God instead of in themselves.
