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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on Apr 22, 2009 7:45:21 GMT -5
Hm...yeah, it is hard to define fantasy...because thats what it is...fantasy. It can't really exist. Thats what makes it fantasy. Fantasy stories are the stories where the unnatural becomes natural and the things that are impossible become possible. In a fantasy story the author makes the rules of the world...which means that almost anything can happen. Thats what makes fantasy different from all the other genres of writting. Fantasy is the only genre of writting where you can COMPLETELY change the rules and limitations of your world.
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Post by knightofhyn on Apr 22, 2009 12:01:04 GMT -5
I was considering the question of a "good" necromancer and remembered that three authors have addressed necromancy in it's good and bad forms. The monks of Arianus are one example. They wanted to imitate the Elves spirit magic and couldn't, but learned more about the magics involved in that world necessary to contain contagion and deal with decay and such. Mookie's necromancers in his webcomic "Dominic Deegan - Seer for Hire" have similar dual purposes. Thats what makes fantasy different from all the other genres of writting. Fantasy is the only genre of writting where you can COMPLETELY change the rules and limitations of your world. I add sci-fi only because...well, all you really have to do is make up a law of physics and things change. Someone came up with the idea of Zero Point Energy and BAM, interstellar travel is possible (Songs of the Distant Earth, Arthur C Clarke.) |
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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on Apr 22, 2009 12:38:07 GMT -5
Hm...yes...i would say sci-fi has a little fantasy in it...but it still follows the basic rules our world. My point was that in fantasy, ALL the rules can change. Not just some. Example, like in a sci-fi story a character might be able to fly without using a plane, but only because of an advancement in technology.(which could be made up.) In fantasy however, a character could fly for any reason that the author could come up with. The difference is: in sci-fi, there is an explanation for everything that is abnormal, in fantasy there doesn't have to be an explanation...it just is.
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Post by stardreamer on Apr 22, 2009 12:49:28 GMT -5
What I meant is that through my characters' relationships with God, he works through them and they are able to do "magic" or whatever you want to call it, through Him.
God works through people. That fact is evident in todays' world, no magic involved. My Characters can use "magic"... sort of. They have gifts given to them by God that they can use... other than that, they can't really do anything else "magical" unless it's through God working through them...
I don't really know if this makes any sense, but...
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Post by stardreamer on Apr 22, 2009 12:53:36 GMT -5
EXACTLY!!!!!  |
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Post by knightofhyn on Apr 22, 2009 14:52:59 GMT -5
There's an explanation in fantasy! Half the time anymore you hear someone say, "What happened?"
The response: "Oh, it's just magic."
I hate to quote Star Trek at this point, but: "One man's magic is another man's science and a third's religion." Thins the line between sci fi and fantasy in my mind.
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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on Apr 22, 2009 19:36:07 GMT -5
Lol, yes, there is an explanation for fantasy. But magic isn't explained ever. it is only explained how to use it. Never how it comes to exist. Magic just is. In sci-fi, if there was magic, somehow there would be an explanation for how it works. example, star wars "magic" is called the "force"...but the force can be explained. Where as magic cannot be explained. That is the difference. In sci-fi...EVERYTHING has an explanation. In fantasy, the explanations are limited...and when it comes down to it...in fantasy...things just are without any explanation if need be. look...you can write a fantasy story and never explain how "magic" happens. But in sci-fi story you have to explain it if anything weird...anything abnormal happens.
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Post by knightofhyn on Apr 23, 2009 14:15:09 GMT -5
Wait, I have to argue this a little...different writers do different things with this. Some writers of very "spiritual" magic (I commune with the earth kind of magic) and those that write very mechanical magic do explain their magic. Hero Second Class discussed the fact that all magic was the manipulation of leylines at its core, giving you a "High Magic" compared to the spell casters that just use "Low Magic". Your "High Mages" (I forget the terminology from the book and don't have it on me) draw power from fire, water, air and earth those lines to create effects. The part about how power is moved isn't specifically detailed, but there is an explanation of the mechanism of it.
I'd say that things are without explanation either by need, want or sometimes, dare I say, lack of effort or creativity on the part of the writer. I don't say this from a pedestal, either. I'm guilty of the same thing. I wrote a story where the characters have abilities and no explanation for them is given except that the differences are only in output (this gets into something too long and completely unrelated to this topic.)
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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on Apr 24, 2009 7:03:53 GMT -5
Hm. Yeah, well, at the end of the day, it comes down to what the author decides, right? Whatever fits the authors world is what the author is going to do. Whether it is technalogical magic or unexplained magic is the author's descision based on his story. And every story is different...which means the rules change for every story. I say be creative and make your world one of a kind.
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Post by myrthman on Apr 24, 2009 21:39:56 GMT -5
Yeah, but I always liked it better unexplained. Midichlorians? Ugh. Obi-Wan's explanation to a young Luke Skywalker was much better in my opinion. Simple. Abstract. Not concrete and microscopic.
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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on Apr 25, 2009 11:48:34 GMT -5
Lol, i completely agree. I like it better unexplained too.
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Post by veryblessedmom on May 12, 2009 10:42:21 GMT -5
I agree that it depends on how the word *magic* is used. I was just at MOPS (Mothers Of Preschoolers) and over heard two moms talking about the reading requirements for 5K at the school my son will attend. They were all upset about a series their kids are reading. So I asked.
One mom, her eyes wide with shock--her mouth gaping open before she spoke, "It's these books where the kids go up into a magic tree house. The house spins around and around and then the kids step out at some other point in history." Her hands flew up in front of her as if she had said enough.
I waited for the rest, but she seemed to be finished. "So... what kind of bad things happen?"
Her head tilted to the side, her forehead wrinkled as if I had missed something. "The tree house takes them places magically!"
I didn't say anything, but I'm fine with my kids reading that kind of magical story. They weren't being taught to worship the Earth or to dance without clothes to gain power from nature. Magic was simply a device used to make a boring subject more interesting.
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Post by JenLenaMom on May 12, 2009 11:10:28 GMT -5
LOL my 8 year old loves The Magic Treehouse books. She and I have conversations about "real" and "imaginary" magic like in those books and her fairy books. It's a fine line to walk if you let you kids believe in Santa Claus, etc. because we tell our kids they use magic to do their jobs. I've done so much quick thinking about the nature of the universe and God as I have since I had kids.
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Post by waldenwriter on Jun 3, 2009 13:28:29 GMT -5
In the back-cover summary of a Christian anti-Harry Potter book I saw once, they used different terms to differentiate between views of magic. The term "magic" was used for the sort of things illusionists (stage magicians) do, whereas the term "magick" was used for "bad magic" (the sort of magic the author of this book believes goes on in Harry Potter).
I struggle with the idea of using magic in fiction. An avid reader of fairy tales and such when I was a kid, I developed a bad habit for thinking some things would just happen by magic in my own life, resulting in my mother having to remind me that such things don't happen. I have also read secular fantasy books in which magic is an element, such as the Harry Potter series and Christopher Paolini's Inheritance Cycle (the third book of which I just finished yesterday).
I read in a book on writing once that a writer should really think about where magic came from in his or her world and what the consequences of using magic were. I think that's a good thought to note.
However, because of the Laura Mallorys in this world (Laura Mallory is a very conservative Christian woman from Georgia who has become infamous in the Harry Potter fandom for her attempts to, through the courts, ban the Harry Potter books) and people like Richard Abanes (author of the anti-Harry Potter book I mentioned at the beginning), I'm scared to use magic in my stories at all if I want to call them Christian. This is what caused me to abandon my superhero team story, Lightning Girl (which wasn't openly Christian anyways, but as a Christian I figure I should be writing Christian stuff).
I also read a Christian pro-Harry Potter book (a rare find) that stated that the magic in Harry Potter was incantational (using incantations) rather than invocational (invoking the power of the devil or other spirits). I don't know if that makes a difference.
So I am still confused as to whether magic is good or bad. I suppose if the Bible says it's bad, it's bad, but isn't fantasy defined as a genre by its use of magic? What is fantasy without magic? This is my dilemma.
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Post by myrthman on Jun 3, 2009 15:22:19 GMT -5
I saw a Christian stage magician once. Not at a birthday party. He's got his own theater in Branson, MO. Anyway, he finished his act with a brief statement that everything he'd done was an illusion and could be replicated by anyone with the right training. He then performed the old cut-a-rope-and-wow-it's-still-one-piece trick while telling the audience that when our lives are falling apart, the ONLY real magic is when Jesus comes along and puts them back together. Without another word, he walked off the stage. The show was over. The crowd was wowed (hehe) but oddly silent. It was cool!
My point is this: magic (on stage or in fiction) can be used as a tool to guide someone toward Jesus. It should be carefully crafted and constructed in such a way as to point toward Jesus as the only real source of power for effective change in one's life. Perhaps it should be accompanied by an explanation by the author (in a partner webpage or appendix, for example). As long as we're glorifying God and not satan in our writing (whether the tool is magic or anything else), I think we'll be alright.
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